Posts by artful

4

To Be Shunned is to be Persecuted

by Quotes in

oh, the irony!.

*** w71 9/15 575 persecuted for trying to serve god ***.

sad to say, this did not stop their persecution, for now it went into a cold-war stage.

artful

Great site. Thanks for the reference.

cheers
artful

39

resurrections- The Dubs are WRONG.

by refiners fire in

there is a passage in scripture that has always bothered me.. it is in revelation 20, where satan is loosed after the 1000 years and misleads masses of perfect people yet again, into warring against god.. these are perfect people, not misled in regard of facts, how could the vast majority of them be misled, again?.

after a reading of rev 20, ive decided the dubs interpretation is flat out.

wrong.. from the dubs own bible verse 3 says that "satan cannot mislead the nations anymore until after the 1000 years".. so those nations must be there, after the millenium.. verse4: .

artful

Thanks for the reply Refiners

Ok, so they do believe that ALL are destroyed at Armageddon. The 144K then sit in judgement of all the dead of history presumably to judge these in the (2nd) resurrection after the end of the 1000 year reign? I assume that these decide (with Jesus) who is written in the 'book of life'? If so, this does seem to be a more consistent interpretation of the events described in Revelation 20.

I agree with you on the twisting of literal and symbolic within the same scripture...quite bizarre!

Their current study in the WTS "Isaiah" book is littered with references to fit as you say "their own ridiculous organizations history". It is laughable...or would be if people weren't expected to swallow it up to attain salvation!

cheers
artful

5

Was Judas Worthy to Partake?

by Tower Man in

the wt, 2-1-02 says on p. 15, that only after judas was gone did jesus institute the memorial of his death.

after researching all 4 gospel accounts, this is simply not true.

luke 22:21 makes it very clear that judas was, in fact, present and active in partaking of the bread and wine.

artful

TM. Luke definitely indicates that Judas was there for the partaking of the covenant bread and wine, a reading of Matthew and Mark make no mention of Judas leaving, and John says Judas left but makes no mention of the covenant.

A very interesting distinction to be made here is that the dubs believe the 'new covenant' is a covenant for a kingship which only the 'anointed' are part of (they quote NWT mistranslation of Luke 22:29 to support this - for a detailed discussion of this see:
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=23818&site=3 ).

What they are saying by this is that the R&F are not part of the new covenant - represented by Jesus shed blood. This is where they completely miss the point - to enter into the New Covenant one must simply have faith in Jesus' ransom and thereby attain salvation (by God's grace). This replaced the Law Covenant which required adherence to a multitude of laws to gain God's favor. Without accepting (or being part of) this New Covenant how could one possibly attain salvation? There is no other way! I think that this is one of the most serious errors the WTS has perpetrated.

You are right when you say:

The WT knows nothing of God's grace, only law. Sad!

So, drink up!
artful

39

resurrections- The Dubs are WRONG.

by refiners fire in

there is a passage in scripture that has always bothered me.. it is in revelation 20, where satan is loosed after the 1000 years and misleads masses of perfect people yet again, into warring against god.. these are perfect people, not misled in regard of facts, how could the vast majority of them be misled, again?.

after a reading of rev 20, ive decided the dubs interpretation is flat out.

wrong.. from the dubs own bible verse 3 says that "satan cannot mislead the nations anymore until after the 1000 years".. so those nations must be there, after the millenium.. verse4: .

artful

Refiners.

Great points I have always had a problem with the dub interpretation of this...the 7th day advents seem to have quite a nice interpretation. I particularily like the paralel to John 5 v 29 re a resurrection of "life" and a resurrection of "judgement'.

Just a question. In this interpretation, if the first resurrection (144,000) are ruling with Christ, who are they ruling over? Is it the 'nations' who you refer to as being there during and after the millenium? If so, is this to mean that the nations of Earth would not be destroyed at Armageddon? ...OR...maybe the nations are destroyed at Armageddon but the 144,000 are ruling over those who survive through Armageddon and make up new nations. Any thoughts?

cheers
artful

24

Telephone call with elder today

by simplesally in

i got a call today on my cell phone today from an elder (i am disfellowshipped)... said i hadn't been seen in a while at the kh.

i said yes, thats true, that the most recent incident regarding his daughter's treatment of my daughter has caused me to not come.

it was the last straw.. "are you going to take it out on jehovah?

artful

Sally.
I admire your courage. As you do more reading you will find that there are many more 'tenents' to question than just the disfellowshipping thing. Good luck in your studies.

TheOldHippie:
Just curious as to why you feel it necessary to remain within an organization to have a relationship with God and Christ? Do you do this in spite of having doubts about WTS teachings? I ask this question honestly because someone close to me has expressed a similar viewpoint, and knowing your rationale may help me to understand them better.

cheers
artful

13

the end of this system

by rnovello in

so when do the jws tell now that the end is to come since the other dates were wrong, anyone know?

artful

For a good laugh on this topic check out the outline for the talk to be given in all congs the week after the Memorial. It can be found at:
http://observer.org

The title is 'Keep in Mind the "Fear Inspiring Day"!'
Of particular amusement is the "Note to the speaker" which reads:

"The purpose of this talk is to build up a sense of urgency in the brothers. Be sure to prepare well and to present the material with enthusiasm."

In other words "Although we have all but given up on our date theories, we need to try to scare the dubs into submission with the 'Composite Sign'. So, when you give this talk, act like you REALLY BELIEVE IT!"

enjoy,
artful

14

Online Bibles

by JosephAlward in

i believe there are many on this forum who are not aware of the many online bibles from which they could almost effortless copy verses to paste into their arguments.

when one refers to a particular verse in a particular book, few readers have the patience to go seach through the whole book.. the online source i use is called "bible gateway.

" it provides several different versions of the bible, and offers word search, which is an indispensible tool for those who take their bible research seriously.. bible gateway is at http://bible.gospelcom.net/.

artful

Some great references here!

Is anyone aware if the New World (Mis)Translation is available online anywhere?

cheers
artful

7

"You Know" invited to The Last Supper

by Atreyu in

sorry for late response.

this is a commentary to a reply from you know, regarding the meaning of the last supper.

by using covenant in both verses, the nwt is thereby giving the impression that the covenant of the blood (v20) is the same thing as the appointment of the kingdom to the disciples (v29).. the greek word for covenant in v20 is diatheke.

artful

Atreyu.

I was not aware of this mistranslation and therefore misapplication of Luke 20:29. Thanks for pointing out another discrepancy with the NWT. This presents yet another very solid argument against the idea of two classes of Christians as presented by the WTS.

cheers
artful

8

Interesting NWT Stuff

by SYN in

got this in one of my xjw mailing lists, have a lookie guys!

flame away!.

examining translations with jehovah's witnesses.

artful

Interesting points TheOldHippie.

However, you mention:

However, if you, the reader of the NWT Reference Edition of 1984, want, or prefer, the alternative rendering of "to know", then the footnote gives you that choice. It should be noted that the 1st edition of the NWT of 1950 also says in a footnote, "Or, "their knowing you."

Surely you are not suggesting that the WTSs intention is that the R&F JW reader has the choice as to which rendering they prefer. I would love to see the look on the congregation overseers face should a dub get up and read the scripture as:
"This means everlasting life, to know you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ."

Not to mention that by far the most frequently used JW bibles (as lovingly provided by the WTS) don't contain any such footnotes. To use your own words:

A case of informing or misinforming. We'll let you decide.

cheers
artful

3

Question for Amazing—Re: Franz/Bible

by Nemesis in

amazing:.

i was curious after i read that you know ray franz, what his views are on those who go to heaven and those who dwell on earth in regard to the scriptures.

i have read both his books, and appreciate all the information therein.

artful

Hi Nemesis

With regards to your point:

The reasons I ask is the scriptures do indicate a time when there will be no more death from old age,

I am also struggling with this question, and I have begun to research some of the 'proof texts' for the paradise earth doctrine. One such text used by JW's is Isa 65 and specifically vs. 21-22 which read (NWT):

_______
21 And they will certainly build houses and have occupancy; and they will certainly plant vineyards and eat their fruitage.
22 They will not build and someone else have occupancy; they will not plant and someone else do the eating. For like the days of a tree will the days of my people be; and the work of their own hands my chosen ones will use to the full.
_________

I have read these scriptures to many people in support of the paradise earth idea without ever really reading verse 20 which says:

_______
20. No more will there come to be a suckling a few days old from that place, neither an old man that does not fulfill his days; for one will die as a mere boy, although a hundred years of age; and as for the sinner, although a hundred years of age he will have evil called down upon him.
________

Verse 20 then seems to refer to a long and healthy life, but certainly not one free from death - for either righteous ones or sinners. This scripture could then be taken to have reference only to the earthly prosperity enjoyed by Isreal while she was God's nation. And this appears to conform to the idea presented by Amazing:

any "earthly" statements in the Bible either applied literally to Israel while she was God's nation, or apply in a symbolic sense of those who go to heaven.

cheers
artful