Posts by Markfromcali

77

Discussion of Mysticism and Interesting thought by Rudolf Stiener

by frankiespeakin in

jw
friends

i'm in the process of reading stieners "the philosophy of freedom" written toward the end of the 19th century.

it was written in german and the translation into english makes it a little hard for me to understand, but somethings that i do seem(?

) to grasp to me are interesting.. .

Anyone here into Fêng Shui?

by nicolaou in

jw
friends

personally i think it's about as useful as a bag full of farts.

what do you think?

Love, I made the comparison because the stuff I have seen takes far more into consideration than the stuff in your house. There are more dynamic factors that are figured in than what you see in the stuff you typically see. I suppose it may be interesting when there is an integration of the two, but it may very well be that because of the amount of study that is involved in each you are either doing a little Feng Shui with a lot of interior decorating or a little interior decorating with a lot of Feng Shui, or just a little of both.

Having seen an accepted authority at work with an authority in other arenas learning from the former (the student was an acupuncturist/oriental med. doc and an internationally recognized martial arts authority) I get no sense that they really care what the place looks like, the end result didn't really have much bearing on the beauty that interior decorating would create but is more functionally oriented. The things you can see are minimal actually, so you can do the rest of the decorating how you want. Again there are different systems of Feng Shui, but I seriously doubt any of them are only concerned with appearances alone. So while there is obviously some overlap it appears to be quite small, because it is not just about placement of things and color schemes. So while I can appreciate the amount of study that goes into interior decorating, I have to conclude it is simply it's own thing.

27

Anyone here into Fêng Shui?

by nicolaou in

jw
friends

personally i think it's about as useful as a bag full of farts.

what do you think?

Markfromcali

I guess that was a weird analogy, but it sort of makes sense if you are dressed to kill..

27

Anyone here into Fêng Shui?

by nicolaou in

jw
friends

personally i think it's about as useful as a bag full of farts.

what do you think?

Markfromcali

Look you guys, talking about Feng Shui is like talking about Kung Fu. First of all, which kind are you talking about? Most people in the West think of kung-fu as martial arts, but the expression actually just means 'skillful work' - it could apply to any number of things. Even if you are referring to martial arts in general, there's a ton of those too - it makes no sense to say it works or does not work, each system has different techniques and so forth.

Although I don't know much about Feng Shui, I do know enough to be willing to bet good money that the stuff you have seen is not anything that resembles the original/real stuff, and frankly it's unlikely that you will - or will recognize it as anything having to do with it because if it's a book it's probably written in Chinese, or it's a person that knows about it. And from what I have seen it is actually not something you can just learn from a book, I have it on good authority that the authors of Feng Shui books just copies each other anyway - so even the info is pretty much worthless. (and I'm not sure if he was referring to Chinese or English books, if it was the Chinese books then the English stuff is another step removed from that) Come to think of it, they also intentionally do some things wrong as they do with some published martial arts material, the old don't give away the trade secrets thing. My guess is the info basically would not be in a format that people can just read and understand anyway. Think of it this way: It is probably something like what Jehovah's Witnesses is to what Jesus was actually about.

By the way, it's not interior decorating. There's not much detail I can go into, but I can tell you that they are based on a lot of the same theories that Chinese medicine is based on, it's like that with a lot of things. I mean... Interior decorating is probably to Feng Shui as modeling is to martial arts.

77

Discussion of Mysticism and Interesting thought by Rudolf Stiener

by frankiespeakin in

jw
friends

i'm in the process of reading stieners "the philosophy of freedom" written toward the end of the 19th century.

it was written in german and the translation into english makes it a little hard for me to understand, but somethings that i do seem(?

) to grasp to me are interesting.. .

Markfromcali

Frankie:

Isn't Wilber supposed to be enlightened?

Umm.. According to who? And actually whether he is or not is not particularly relevant to the point, because frankly the way he writes you can at best get a sense of whether he is intellectually awake, which again is not the only game in town. I have read some of his journal, One Taste I think and read a tiny bit of Boomeritis, his novel, but frankly my impression is just that he's a pretty smart guy. And I'm sure he is not trying to convey the state of enlightenment through his writings, it's basically this kind of outline of things and some observations in regards to dominant attitudes of seekers like the idea of boomeritis. If you compare that to the more potent expressions found in the traditional writings whether it's zen koans, Rumi or something like that, you'll find the latter has a sense of immediacy when you get it. One does not get a sense that these guys are at all interested in mapping the spectrum of consciousness, it's more like know where the ground is first, where you're standing and then you can walk - when that is not there having a map is irrelevant.

I know there is an older one, Grace and Grit, which has to do with his ex-wife's struggle with and death from cancer, that might be more interesting. I haven't read this one so I don't know what it's like, nor am I implying this is what's going on with Wilbur, but I gotta say all too often you have intellectual spiritual people who might have moments where their hearts are touched but then their minds kind of run amok, and it's evident because the mental activity is just so far removed from the initial experience, they just don't realize they've actually moved farther away from it. And actually in that case it is clear the mind isn't what needs to be developed, or awakened, but rather the heart is. Not that they are so separate, but there is clearly a difference between intellectual development without heart and with. It's interesting to note that some traditions state you progress is accelerated when the heart opens up, one that immediately comes to mind is the Sufis, and even if it's not explicitly stated you can see where it comes into play in other traditions.

23

25-year-old elders and 18-year-old ministerial servants

by Gopher in

at some point in the 1980's, a good number of younger men were appointed to the position of servants and elders in congregations, at least here in the midwestern usa.

before the 1980's, the required age for elders seemed to be 30, and for ministerial servants 20 (except in rare cases).

perhaps due to a lack of men who were "reaching out", the organization needed to "reach down" and pick out younger men to populate their hierarchy.

Markfromcali

Remember you guys that the word ego doesn't necessarily indicate an inflated one, it might just indicate the particular personality structure the person identifies with.

In that sense all JWs are influenced egoically, even if they are very timid, it is just a matter of thinking you are this person which is the product of WT teachings and the social influences in the congregations.

This reminds me of a couple of Minimus' recent threads, on being phoney and what a person is like before and after the JW experience. That facade may in fact be how the person is used to being, or how they are used to relate to other people, because you are supposed to be a certain way as a good JW and all of that.

Even though you may no longer believe in everything you were taught, that behavior might still be there because you are simply used to being that way in dealing with the congregation. It might very well be that the personality has actually been shaped like that too, the JW "vibe" always reminds me like Leave it to Beaver or something like that.

Of course, since only men can be servants and with the whole headship belief that is bound to inflate the ego, but in terms of defining the structure (specific beliefs and behaviors) it can also be a very influential age.

63

JW related movie titles

by Markfromcali in

i think there was a thread on this at some point but search is not working, wouldn't know the keywords anyway.. but like i just thought of escape from brooklyn bethel - instead of escape from new york.. it would be cool if someone can write little blurbs for these too.

anyone have/remember others?

Markfromcali

Big Trouble in Little Bethel!

That reminds me of this dialogue between Jack Burton and Lo Pan, that goes something like:

Jack: .. live out your earthly pleasures and rule the universe from beyond the grave!

Lo Pan: Indeed!

Jack: Either that or check into a psycho ward, whichever comes first, huh?

77

Discussion of Mysticism and Interesting thought by Rudolf Stiener

by frankiespeakin in

jw
friends

i'm in the process of reading stieners "the philosophy of freedom" written toward the end of the 19th century.

it was written in german and the translation into english makes it a little hard for me to understand, but somethings that i do seem(?

) to grasp to me are interesting.. .

Markfromcali

Hi Frankie,

One thing that occurs to me in reading something like Wilber's model is the question of breadth and depth. While these models may provide a nice "map", the depth of understanding may not be there, and of course you certainly don't find depth in a map.

People tend to be impressed with ability in a certain arena, or a certain level of functioning, and intellectual ability is certainly looked up to. But of course even if it was, say, athletic performance, the description of the phenomenal ability says nothing about the actual ability to play well. Ability to describe things well could be considered a nice gift, but actualizing the ability to function on a deeper level of what we might call being human, which the smart guy might only describe, is a whole other story.

This is not to place any kind of value judgement on things at all, because of course if one is so inclined and is even good at it then being a "map maker" just naturally suits that person. But from what I have observed in spiritual circles, I have to say there often is this disproportionate development where one level is emphasized to the exclusion of others, in extreme circumstances people don't even eat on a regular basis to support their own health, or is otherwise unconscious of their behavior on some levels. For the most part, in our culture it appears to be a focus on this mapping business, but as good as your map might be you have to actually take steps to walk and get there. In fact, a lot of people haven't even travelled very far, it's like they are compiling a map based on maps other people have made, but they've never step foot outside of their house. Sometimes the map becomes their house.

77

Discussion of Mysticism and Interesting thought by Rudolf Stiener

by frankiespeakin in

jw
friends

i'm in the process of reading stieners "the philosophy of freedom" written toward the end of the 19th century.

it was written in german and the translation into english makes it a little hard for me to understand, but somethings that i do seem(?

) to grasp to me are interesting.. .

Markfromcali

But if we once succeed in really finding life in thinking, we shall know that swimming in mere feelings, or being intuitively aware of the will element, cannot even be compared with the inner wealth and the self-sustaining yet ever moving experience of this life of thinking, let alone be ranked above it.

This one really puzzles me???

It would puzzle 'the mind' because it cannot go there.

In spite of the ambiguity of translation, it strikes me as being like the zen ox-herding pictures. Specifically it's where you move from emptiness back into the world, but now it is not a matter of conditioning/karma/whatever, being tossed about by the 'ten thousand things.' But of course even then you'd still think, you don't become a space cadet - there is just not all the useless mind chatter.

Also it's not a matter of a particular moment like ok from this point on I am abiding in the emptiness, (pure potential) it HAPPEND - things can progress on multiple level simultaneously. So even before that is fully realized you can act 'from that place' in daily life, whether it's mental or physical activity. It's just a matter of how clearly it comes through, no big deal. As Steven says in another one of his songs:

I'll find that place that is no place at all
At the center of the center of the center of the wheel

26

Personality Wise----Are You THAT Much Different Since Leaving The "Truth"?

by minimus in

jw
friends

i believe that most people are what they are----whether they were jws or are exes.

for example, if you were a basically happy go lucky person in the hall, you probably have that same nature now.

conversely, if you were accused of always complaining and being miserable then, you probably still bitch and moan now.

Markfromcali

I see your point, although I think the personality as a whole may be viewed as quite different as certain personality traits might have been suppressed to a large degree while others may have been emphasized - even though it was all there all along. As someone who was not raised as a JW (but still came into it in my early teens) I can tell you that is basically my experience, some of the more positive traits was basically suppressed during the JW years.

Besides that I think it is good to look at just what is going on during that time though, rather than just the before and after comparison. We all know about the religious conditioning, but it occurs to me that the whole mindset with something like the JW experience involves two things, which are seeking truth and seeking happiness. Something that happens is you put life on hold while looking for something better, whereas the truth of you as a person is you have those traits that makes you an individual and naturally, being able to express those innate tendancies naturally makes you happy as a person.

So it kind of depends on how good you are at trying to make yourself into a Jehovah's Witness or whatever, because unless you happen to be in a system (like belief and social) which is very similar to how you are as a person, then that would have come through in spite of the contrasting environment and mental indoctrination. Of course the thing is sincere people will work very hard at trying to change themselves, so it could just kind of peek out once in a while compared to the fringe Witness that was never really in.