fleaman - I would guess that you have also been the victim of adultry. Allow me to say that yes it is and was a horrible thing. I was 18 years old (19 years ago) and suffered myself in many, many ways because of my terrible choices in that matter. I would also like to clarify that I had a problem with drugs and alcohol and went to the elders to tell them that while I was loaded my boss who was married and 17 years older than me, seduced me. I didn't blame him then - I can see now that I was very young and not of a clear mind for many reasons. I will also say that he was not the first older, married man to use me in sexual way...and yes the others were JW's. Do you think they discussed my drug problem? Do you think they offered my any outside help? No. They didn't even address it. All they did was grill me for every gory detail.....did he penetrate you, were you wet....Then, they DF'ed me. Granted, maybe I did have it coming. But HELLO - its 19 years later. I have long since realized what I did wrong and got a lot of help for myself to not keep making the same mistakes. I'm only sharing this with you because for future reference, its not really fair to judge based on such little information. Their are all sorts of shades of gray and people do change.
Bubbamar
JoinedPosts by Bubbamar
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What kind of JW response do you think I'll get?
by Bubbamar inin my moms last letter she stated that me, my sister and her should all just "move on" meaning put our hurts and anger behind us and work towards having better relationships.
however, in the same letter she clarified that disfellowshipping is "discipline" and she intends to continue shunning me.
so i wrote back asking her what "moving on" means for her.
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Artificial Intelligence's View of "Watchtower"
by gitasatsangha inoutput from http://www.googlism.com/index.htm?ism=watchtower&type=1 .
googlism for: watchtower.
watchtower is lying about their connection with the nazis.
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Bubbamar
jehovah is going to shake and rattle and roll
jehovah is not god and jesus was not man
jehovah is just as mad about it as youLOL
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Two faced lying hypocrites
by Uzzah ini just came across this link advertising an award dinner by the canadian bar association.. http://www.cba.org/cba/news/2004_releases/2004-08-17_probono.asp.
it announces shane brady of georgetown (bethelite) as the winner of the probone award for 2004. i'll let the announcement speak for itself.. .
what burns me is that the brady is on a vow of poverty, and gets his marching orders from bethel.
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Bubbamar
THis is great! Maybe we could send letters to local Canadian newspapers too? Wouldn't the newspapers love to document the relationship between the nominating attorney and the guy who received the award. I really think people need to know that he won an award for helping teenagers essentially kill themselves.
Oh - and did I read correctly - they called the WT a "religioius CHARITY" Barf!
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What kind of JW response do you think I'll get?
by Bubbamar inin my moms last letter she stated that me, my sister and her should all just "move on" meaning put our hurts and anger behind us and work towards having better relationships.
however, in the same letter she clarified that disfellowshipping is "discipline" and she intends to continue shunning me.
so i wrote back asking her what "moving on" means for her.
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Bubbamar
I shouldn't have hit 'send' so quickly. Damn! You guys are so smart. Thanks for all the wise reminders.
Below is her response. Typical JW cult rant. Interesting how she asks me to "move on" and put the past in the past and brings up -in detail- my most shameful moments from 18 years ago. Also interesting that she tells me not attack her beliefs...in the midst of attacking mine (of which she knows nothing about). Arggggh!
Gnat - I think I will quote from you word for word! Beautiful suggestion. And Dark Uncle - you are right - I have to let her go to be a JW if that's what she chooses.
HappyGuy - She is clearly a stone! lol
She says I'm still a JW?!?!?! WTF???!?!?
As for your disfelloshipping, this is set out in the Bible and is not something that we made up. You may have been too young to be baptized, I thought so but you didn't. Whether you were or not, when the brothers had their meeting with you, they shared with you the consequences and showed you why your behavior was wrong. You refused to listen. Richard knew better. The scripture that says that what God has joined together, man should not put apart was one they shared with you. You said that didn't apply because Richard wasn't one of Jehovah's Witnesses. They pointed out that that applied to any marriage. They said that Richard would not be content until he had had more than XXXXX with you. You said your love was pure & that he wouldn't do any such thing. I remember one of the brothers who spoke up and said as a man--not an elder--that that was imposible. Once he had had a taste of the fruit, he would not be content until he had it all! You were gullible but I'll use an illustration of Adam & Eve--they were the first ones disfelloshipped. Eve,being younger than Adam did not have the experience that Adam had & yet when Satan ask her if it was so that they could not eat of the tree, she added on the the command. Jehovah said not to eat the fruit or die. She told Satan that they were not even to touch the tree. Then Satan told her a lie that made Jehovah look like he was witholding something good. He said that she would not die & further that if she ate, she would be like God and be able to judge for herself what was good & bad. She convince Adam to take the fruit but he knew exactly what he was doing He chose Eve & rejected Gods right to rule over them & give them loving guidance (who knew better what was best for them: Jehovah who had been around forever or two people who had only lived a short time as Jehovah measures time. ( a thousand years as one day to Jehovah! Would you expect a three year old to make a wise decision?) Like you, they had been told what would happen if they did not obey--they would die. Interestingly, you might enjoy reading this since it shows that each evning Adam had personal conversations with Jehovah so Jehovah had a warm & persoanl relationship with them. They ate of the fruit, they were thrown out of their "model home" (they were to turn the rest of the earth into a beautiful paradise like their home. Adam recived the most desicipline--for all ages everyone would know that we grow old & die because of him. He was told that working the land would no longer be easy for him & Eve was told that the pangs of birth would greatly increase. And, of course, they could never return to their garden home. Jehovah never spoke to Adam after that. Spoke to their children but never Adam & Eve. You ask what kind of world this would be? If everyone lived by the Bibles standards, we would have no babies w/o mothers or daddys. We would have no stealing, murder, wars, divorce or any othere problems as it will be in the New System. That would really be a bad world, wouldn't it? God has always worked with one person, Abraham or group-the Israelites. They were his convenant people until they rejected His son. Then he made a convenant with those who followed Jesus. Look at the universe, Marla, there is so much order there. People here have spent melliums doing things the way they want, telling the Creator how they will worship him--would dare to go before the President & tell him what laws you would obey & which ones he should get rid of? Look at the world we live in, Marla. We are rapidly headed towards our own destruction on this Planet Earth, if God doesn't step in and put and end to it all. Read Rev 11:18. Jehovah is the only one who has the right to govern us along with his Son, Jesus. Man will never bring real peace to this earth--people are too greedy & selfish--even if they brought about a World Rule--it would be rife with bribery, stealing, lying & all the rest. You can believe whatever you want to, Marla. I will answer your questions. Don't please attack my beliefs. My are firmly based on what the Bible says. We use the Bible like a text book--they more we study it, the more we learn about our Creator & His wonderful purpose for us. I want to be in that New Earth. I want to raise your big, little brother. I want him to grow up never knowing the fears we have know. He will never have to worry about someone molesting him. He will never have to worry about dying in a war or being shot on the streets for his shoes or money for drugs. Can your beliefs promise that? The Spanish phrase measures litterally means:Dear girl. Doesn't sound like much in English but is meant nice in spanish. More later. Went to eat. Disfelloshipping is a discipline Like Adam, you are cut off from any guidance or protection from Jehovah. You are not allowed any felloship with your brothers. You are & always will be one of Jehovah's Witnesses just and the Israelites were always Gods people even when they became so disgusting that he allowed them to be taken into slavery. They continued to be His people untill they rejected His Son. If you ever decided that you wanted order, peace & the wonderful hope of the New System, you would be one of his people with full privileges--the greatest one being that of a relationship with Jehovah. I prefer that to the kinds of religion that are out that that will condone anything that will get them enough contributions from the people! As the Bible says about the last days--people would look for ones who would tickle their ears! We have well over 2000 different religions--some came about because there were disagreements within one & so some left and started their own church--but all wanting to tell the Creator of the Universe how they will worship God! How arrogant of them. What kind of government would we have if everyone decided what laws they would or would not obey? It's called anarchy. Same goes for relligions that think they can obey whatever of Gods laws they want & reject the others. Or even to take some parts of the Bible & say it is not needed. All I ask is that you think about this. please? I love you but I know what will happen to you when this system of things goes down. Before it ends this earth will know anarchy & then God will bring an end to it all. Those that want to accept his rule will have ever lasting peace, no old age, & no death. Can your beliefs give you that? I think that this is all either one of us can deal with right now. Jehovah does love you. But he will always keep his Word. I did not like the discipline I gave you or your sister but because I loved you I did & if you remember, I always kept my word and I didn't back down-- even when your father would ground you and then forget about it because he knew I would hold you to whatever he ordered. Sometimes you learned something from the descipline. I love you, Mother
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My wife has joined me in leaving the Watchtower!!!
by AlmostAtheist ini had posted a few times since my awakening asking how best to talk to my wife about my new take on things.
i was very afraid of handilng it poorly and chasing her deeper into the organization.
instead, she basically said, 'i've been feeling the same way!
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Bubbamar
YIPEE!!!!!!!!!
That's the best news I've heard all day!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Enjoy your freedom!
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What kind of JW response do you think I'll get?
by Bubbamar inin my moms last letter she stated that me, my sister and her should all just "move on" meaning put our hurts and anger behind us and work towards having better relationships.
however, in the same letter she clarified that disfellowshipping is "discipline" and she intends to continue shunning me.
so i wrote back asking her what "moving on" means for her.
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Bubbamar
In my moms last letter she stated that me, my sister and her should all just "move on" meaning put our hurts and anger behind us and work towards having better relationships. However, in the same letter she clarified that disfellowshipping is "discipline" and she intends to continue shunning me. So I wrote back asking her what "moving on" means for her. She neatly avoided the real question and talked about how my sister should get over all the things she's mad at our mom about. So this is my response to her. Any thoughts? "In my letter I asked you what it meant for you to move on in relation to your need to continue "disciplining" me. That's why I asked you to clarify again what it meant for you. Basically, I am to understand that my sinful acts and my ongoing choice to not be a JW will never be behind us. But every hurtful thing you have done should be behind us. Is my understanding about that correct? I am not trying to be belligerent. It just strikes me as a double standard. You guys fight in courts for religious freedom - yet I am not granted the same freedom to choose differently without the threat of losing family, friends and eternal life. I don't know if you belonged to another religion before you joined the witnesses - but lets say for argument sake that you did. Lets say that I have joined whatever religion that is and they tell me that I should not speak to you or have contact with you because you left them and you sin by being associated with the witnesses. And because I want to please God, I do so. That scenario, I'm sure, strikes you as insane and ludicrous. But for the witnesses to do it - it is perfectly sane and the biblical Truth. Imagine if all religions did that what a lovely (3rd) world it would be. Anyway that's my point and my question. As moot as it may be."
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Franz - Schnell
by core inmany times on this board people post to say a factor in their leaving the wt was having read ray franz book(s) - many years ago william schnell published a book - 30 years a watchtower slave - have never seen this book but was wondering - has anyone read it ?
was it as effective as crisis of conscience in exposing the myth of "the truth"?
- did it have an imact when it was publised?
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Bubbamar
I've read both. CoC is a LOT better than Slave. Franz books well researched, documented and easy to read. Schnell doesn't document anything and does seem to add a bit in terms of drama to his story. His was interesting to me because he joined in the very early years - and in europe - so its a little different perspective.
I'd definitely recommend Franz's CoC for starters.
Someone else said the Ray does sound bitter. It's ironic. I felt that he should really be seething after the royal shaft he got from the WTS. But I really couldn't sense that. In fact the absence of it struck me.
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Who wants to do a letter writing campaign to the borg?
by Jez inreading the amazing information about what a cult is, got me thinking....there are thousands of ppl here, why don't we do a letter writing campaign to the society, bombarding them with letters outlining things like the cult attachment to jw's, disfellowshipping, 1914, un, anything that we would like to see admitted or changed?
outline what changes we think would be useful and necessary.
we could then post the letters that they send back here to let others know how they reply.
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Bubbamar
Evergreen - if you're bored at meetings why don't you just stay home. Thursday night TV is a LOT better!! Joey and The Apprentice are so good!! If they cut out the number of meetings then some people would be so lost without the rigid daily structure. They would probably end up doing something really bad....like googling "jehovahs witnesses." So you could just skip and let everyone who wants to go to the meeting.
You guys are right about writing to the media. I hadn't thought about that. Will they print an anonymous letter to the editor?
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Who wants to do a letter writing campaign to the borg?
by Jez inreading the amazing information about what a cult is, got me thinking....there are thousands of ppl here, why don't we do a letter writing campaign to the society, bombarding them with letters outlining things like the cult attachment to jw's, disfellowshipping, 1914, un, anything that we would like to see admitted or changed?
outline what changes we think would be useful and necessary.
we could then post the letters that they send back here to let others know how they reply.
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Bubbamar
Hey Jez
I would be interested in a letter writing campaign to help get information to the rank and file dubs. But I don't really care if the Borg makes any changes. And they won't anyway. Like there gonna listen to a bunch of evil complaining apostates. I actually hope they continue to become more strict, greedy crazy, devious and more dishonest so more people will become dissatisfied and/or see through their garbage. Plus we'd have fresh amunition to expose them with.
I recently sent some UN info out to local halls. Hopefully, at least one seed was planted.
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Same sex marriage and religion
by Jahna infrom cbc.ca news ?many of the groups opposed to same-sex marriage are concerned about their freedom of religion, fearing ministers from churches opposed to gay marriage would be forced to perform same-sex ceremonies.
the tird question on the reference is meant to deal with their concerns.?
the issue of same sex marriages are being debated in canada?s top court starting today.
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Bubbamar
The JW's will NEVER perform a gay wedding ceremony. EVER. The light will NEVER be that bright.
I don't think ministers would have to perform a ceremony they didn't want to perform for what ever reason. A gay couple would probably not ask a homophobe to perform the ceremony. Just like a Jew would not want an antisemitic priest performing their ceremony.
Plus, I think they could just say they are not available if they don't want to do it.