Are we saying the event at the Last Supper is an actual, historical event?
Golly!
Terry
Posts by Terry
-
15whose breast?
by peacefulpete innote the present version of the betrayal revelation scene in john:.
21 when jesus had thus said, he was troubled in spirit, and.
and when he had dipped the sop, he gave it to judas.
-
-
-
32
What day was man created?
by Gadget inaccording to the bibles account of creation, there seems to be a contridiction as to when man was created.
the theory accepted by most people i've spoken to is that, according to gen 2:7, 7 and jehovah god proceeded to form the man out of dust from the ground and to blow into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man came to be a living soul, stating that man was created on the seventh creative day.. however, genesis 1:27 states that on the 6th creative day, 27 and god proceeded to create the man in his image, in god?s image he created him; male and female he created them.. so were man created on the 6th or 7th creative day?
and if god created man on the 7th day, then later created woman from man why does the bible state that he created man and woman at the same time on the 6th day?
-
-
Terry
I can never get any Jehovah's Witness (or any other religious person) to discuss exactly WHEN, according to the Bible, the dinosaurs were created. Further, why were they "designed" to be so ferocious, bloodthirsty and violent? Why all the millions and millions of deaths? Half the dinosaur population were not killers, but, leaf eaters. They were breakfast for the predators. How is this indicative of Jehovah's personality? Spikes, horns, tails with bludeons, claws, fangs and death: what does this say about their "creator"?
Nobody talks about this. I had one lady I use to work with tell me that all the dinosaurs died in the flood of Noah's day!!! It was one of the few times I've been struck speechless.
A day or two later I asked the lady a question she could not answer. "What did the carnivores on the ark eat in all those years it took to repopulate their species? Whose meat did they eat?"
The carrion from the flood would make an awful rot! Not much of food value there.
Terry
-
133
String theory, Relativity, and angels
by onacruse incurrent mathematical models of the universe involve what is termed 'hyper-dimension.".
ever read the book flatland?
it describes how a 2-dimensional being would perceive the intersection of a 3-dimensional object in "their" universe.. a flatlander would never be able to comprehend a sphere.
-
-
Terry
A theory which explains everything; explains nothing.
That is the problem with the Bible and any religion. All Christian religions, cults and sects use the same references and "prove" their orthodoxies by it.
About math.....it is an artificial construct. It is a tool. It is remarkably consistent in allowing us to prove the elusive and predict the possible and verify the actual.
My problem with Immanuel Kant and his ilk is Primacy of Consciousness.
Kant and others of mystical leanings tend to make the source of reality interior to our thinking. This is dangerous delusional distortion. Our mind is a receptor of stimulus. Our 5 senses are receivers of external stimuli. The result of any stimulus is a response. What do we do with our nerve ending response to outside stimuli?
First a description of PRIMACY OF EXISTENCE
1.Cognition and Measurement: The base of all of man's knowledge is the perceptual level of awareness. Man grasps the evidence of his (externally stimulated) senses. He apprehends external reality thereby. To say of something: "IT IS" is to recognize that "it" means an entity, "is" has existence. Regarding such an entity as a "unit" (separating it from all fellow stimulants)becomes the basis of mathmatical measurement.
2.Regarding an external stimulus as an entity (an "it") and regarding it as a member of a group is to establish a quantitative relationship. By using measurements (dividing one thing from all others) the range of man's knowledge increases.
3.Concept Formation: Identifying the same/different aspects of an entity (thing) and differentiating by measure and degree it becomes possible to isolate two or more existents (things) by means of those distinguishing characteristics. When the characteristic is kept and the specific measurement is excluded a CONCEPT is formed. TREE, for example, excludes how large, how many leaves, what color? etc) The Concept becomes the master file.
4.Abstraction from Abstraction: The Concept stands for a great many particulars in a general way. Only common characteristics are allowed in a single given Concept file. When a concept is narrowed and subdivided into subfiles the general becomes refined into more and more specifics. TREE contains a subfile:Hardwood, a subfile: deciduous, a subfile: evergreen, etc.)
5.Concepts of Consciousness: Two fundamental attributes are required for a state of consciousness. First, the _content_of one's awareness (subject or entity). Secondly, the _action_or process toward that entity. Consciousness too can have concepts by generalizing from similar states and narrowing them down into subfiles. Concepts can be true or false according to their factual content. Example: Ghosts, Unicorns, Bigfoot. A state of consciousness which regards those examples as true would be different from the state of consciousness that regards them as fictions. The factual content supports or destroys the verification process.
6.DEFINITIONS: The nature of all the units contained in a Concept. A definition can be more or less factual or accurate. A definition, in order to be accurate and factual, must contain specific characteristics, measurements, instances that are verifiable in a given context. As one takes in more and more information and processes that information the definitions of a concept or updated and refined.
7.Axiomatic Concepts: primary facts of reality implicit in all knowledge. An axiom must not be a matter of arbitrary choice. The opposite of an axiom must be unthinkable. Example: a sqare circle.
8.Consciousness and Identity: the gap between consciousness and reality is a matter of the power of focus, identification, conceptualization and constant refinement by testing, experimentation and objective analysis. A man must constantly ask: What do I know? and "How do I know it?
Immanuel Kant and other Mystics invalidate man's ability to perform the act of perceiving reality by his senses. They invalidate the law of identity. An analogy: When man discovers that his physical existence is of a certain nature with specific needs applying to that nature; only then does he proceed to satisfy the needs of that physical nature properly. (Eating the right foods, exercise, clothing, shelter, etc.) The same is true of the awareness of his mind and its nature in cognative processing. Only by perceiving external reality, identifying specifics, generalizing into concepts, refining into subfolders with factual definitions and constant updating by exposure to more and more experience---by those methods man acquires useful knowledge.
Primacy of Consciousness short-circuits rational thought. Internally generated "insight" or "intution" bypasses reality and its source of data. Wishful thinking, dreams, personal preferences, prejudices, superstitions, hearsay, fears become the subsituted source of "data".
The result? Myth, hallucination, religion, old wives' tales, urban legands, UFO kidnappings, etc.
NOTE:
An hypothesis when tested and constantly falsified, leads to a Theory (in the scientific sense) which can act as an Axiom until it fails in some way. Science searches for the failure to predict. Without prediction no theory has value. A prediction that is successful and repeatable over and over connects the guesses with the facts.
RELIGIOUS ideas and mystical assertions are free of any means of testing them. When you are told that you must pray and that God answers your prayers, it does not good to complain that your prayers are not answered. You will be told you don't have enough faith or that the answer was "no". If you are told Jesus will come in 1914 and you complain it didn't happen; you will be told he is invisible. And so on. No proof is possible with the mystic. The source of a mystic's "data" is his own mind!
That is why I take exception to the assault on man's mind by such philosophers as Kant. I prefer Aristotle and Mortimer J. Adler.
As far as the relevence to our general topic? I leave you to make the connection :)
Terry
-
22
"Un-baptism" questions please
by alamb inmy eldest child has asked to be baptized next month as a jw.
the court has ordered i have to give written permission if the child is under 18. .
i am going to consent, but only if she studies with me and can answer my baptism questions.
-
-
Terry
1.What is the test of a true prophet of god?
2.When the faithful and discreet slave (governing body) predicted 1844,1925,1975, Millions NOW living will never die---were their writings and teachings true and correct? How does the test of a prophet apply?
3.When the Watchtower, Awake!, Golden Age magazines printed article after article stating that germs do not cause disease, vaccinations do not work, aluminum cookware can kill you, olive oil cures appendicitis, there is no such thing as rabies, the shape of your head determines your intelligence, that black people can turn white by praying----were they preaching GOOD NEWS that was true? Was the error of those articles dangerous?
4.The Governing Body says its mistakes and errors were only human and done with righteous zeal and good intentions. How many times can a person make the very same "mistake" and still be telling the truth?
5.Jehovah's Witnesses believe the Supreme Being, Creator of the Heavens and the Earth, only deals with a few guys in Brooklyn New York and nobody else. What if they are wrong? Would that explain their constant errors, their changes, their flip-flopping doctrines? Is there a better explanation?
That should do the trick!
Terry
-
12
Text from Ex, she has met some nice JW's and needs some advice. (must read)
by AlanB ini had a text message from an ex last week, she wanted to meet to discuss some jw's she had met that were really nice people but wanted some advice.
so the other night i drove over to a town in the north west of england to meet her and a really bizarre story unfolded.
we shall call our heroine julie who has recently moved into a new house along with her two children who we shall call janet and john, both children are in their early teens, julie is mid 30's.
-
-
Terry
The majority of JW's under the age of senility lead double lives (if only in their own mind).
They have to have the religious fantasy life with the Kingdom Hall, door to door, happy talk with the brothers,etc. And then, there is the hidden, compartmentalized life of longing for a normal place in the world.
The majority of brothers lead desperate lives of personl unfullfillment. They mostly have lousy jobs like janitors and window cleaners and grunt work. They never earn much money or put any away for a rainy day. They don't FEEL like good providers. They feel like losers. They are.
A sane JW brother has sexual feelings he can't begin to deal with in the religious frame of mind. He then either has an active fantasy life (internet porn, strip bars, dating worldly girls) or he splits his personality into an actual predatory search.
A lot of JW men I've know constantly flirt with danger. i.e. women. They WANT to be swept away in passion. Why? They have none in their lives.
JW brothers are socially and sexually retarded for the most part and cannot break free from the brainwashing that distorts them and stifles expression. Sublimation plays an extraordinary role in the lives of religiously repressed people. They try to HELP you and in doing so, convert sexuality into religious expressions.
The similarity between Catholic priests and JW men is quite a parallel. Guilt, fantasy, self-hatred and repressed passions can warp their personalities. Not always--but, often enough to cause others a lot of problems.
What does Bill have going for him other than the fact he is single and hot-looking?
NOTHING!
End of story.
Terry
-
7
Skeptics Annotated Bible
by eljefe ini found this site yesterday and i thought i would share it with everyone.
you can find it here: www.skepticsannotatedbible.com.
it has everything from the bible, the quran, to the book of mormon.
-
-
Terry
Ohhhh. Nice link. Thank you.
-
20
Favorite sayings
by simplesally inwhat do you say when you are trying to get your point across............. i say:.
what god makes dies.
what man makes breaks.
-
-
Terry
My favorite sayings don't follow any pattern at all.
1.A man is the essence of the things he loves.
2.What you hate; you become
3.Life is what happens while you're making other plans.
4.We grow too soon old and too late smart.
5.Unless you are willing to be proven wrong; you are a dishonest person.
6.As you go through life let this be your goal; keep your eye on the doughnut and not on the hole.
7. There is a destiny that makes us brothers; none goes his way alone. What you send into the lives of others will come back into your own.
8.Truth is not what you say; it is not what you think; truth is what you do.
9. The past is the future.
10.I only know that I know nothing. (Socrates)
Terry
-
133
String theory, Relativity, and angels
by onacruse incurrent mathematical models of the universe involve what is termed 'hyper-dimension.".
ever read the book flatland?
it describes how a 2-dimensional being would perceive the intersection of a 3-dimensional object in "their" universe.. a flatlander would never be able to comprehend a sphere.
-
-
Terry
The truth of the matter is that ENERGY (a word used commonly and frequently) is merely a concept. It is an abstract scaler inference from an interaction of quantities(of waves or matter).
See how gobblety gook that sounds?
In other words, it goes like this. Somebody give a kid a lollipop and we infer (conclude) they are a nice person who likes children. That quality of "nice" is just an abstract shorthand way of tagging a whole range of potential behaviors and qualities not yet observed.)
Most of the words used by Physicists to describe fundamentals are conceptual descriptions of inference and not ACTUAL things like a strand of macaroni or a toenail clipping or a nosehair.
Take the word FORCE as another example. It describes what causes a change in velocity on a material body. Consequently, a FORCE doesn't exist as a thing hovering over the water or hiding in the basement.
So what?
People who use those words: ENERGY and FORCE tend to misuse them. They become used as a mythical entity like a unicorn or bigfoot. Crackpots throw words around like energy and force without having a clue what they mean. Everybody uses those words and very few really have a handle on the essential concepts involved. As a result the conclusion we often reach when such words are bandied about are mythical.
We know from the research experiments of physicists and theoretical scientists and mathematicians that a new language was needed to allow science to portray what is going on at the molecular (and smaller!) subatomic level. That language was invented for that purpose and it becomes the barrier between non-scientists and scientists. Science becomes, as a result, a Priesthood and Mysterium. The church is born and we become the laity who must have the truths interpreted to us.
SO WHAT IS MY POINT?
Unless we keep close track on where the ACTUAL ends and the POTENTIAL begins we crossover to a new language and a new landscape.
We are in danger of using actual scientific concepts in a grammar metaphorical and not specifically descriptive of actual events.
This has already been evident in religious speech where everyday words like Soul, Spirit, Life, Death, Die etc are transformed into silly putty to be stretched beyond all reckoning to suit any fanciful imagination or doctrine. Should we do this to Science too??
If we are going to talk sciene we SIMPLY CANNOT do it accurately with words. It is MATH that is the language of science. There is no in-between. We are fooling ourselves that meaninful interchange is taking place.
I will use music as an analogy. We can talk all day about music---but, unless we use NOTES on staff paper to demonstrate and listen to the actual acoustic sounds themselves we are in a completely different world than the one music lies in. Music is an interpretion of acoustic phenomena made meaningful on a subjective level.
I hope my thoughts are presented here clearly. We are free to talk about science and physics all day and night; certainly. Let us just not fool ourselves about what level the discussion is taking place on.
Ignore me--I'm a madman. Who let me out of my cage?
Terry
-
5
Reformation
by RR inokay, serious hypo question.
if you could reform the watchtower, what would you do?
rr
-
-
Terry
How can we reform the common garden spider (to make its capture and subsequent devouring of the hapless insect caught in its web) more acceptable to the victim?
Should we make the spider paint the web in day-glo colors so that the insect will fly willingly, knowingly, to its doom?
Should we demand the spider post a notice of full disclosure to all the insect kingdom to the effect that any commerce between the arachnid and the insect will result in one being dinner and the other being the diner?
Perhaps we could request that the spider approach the victim noisily, dislodge them from the sticky strands, read them their rights and only then bind them and suck their brains out through the top of their head?
Maybe we should suggest counseling for insect and spider? Perhaps through mutual understanding they could learn to co-exist? Of course, the spider would starve---but, there would be peace!
All of the above is sarcasm, naturally. The nature of the spider is to do spider things like trapping, binding and eating insects who fall into its web.
The Watchtower Society is not a public service organization. They exist to do certain things which, if not done, would cease to give meaning to their nature. What constitutes the nature of their messege?
1.Declaring Jesus is back since 1914.
2.Jesus rejected every religious group on earth and chose the boys in Brooklyn.
3.The Governing Body is the only ONLY true channel of communication with the Supreme Being.
4.God can be called by his given name, Jehovah (even though it is an error of pronunciation).
5.The only thing worth spending your time and money on--ever--is Jehovah's kingdom under his son Christ Jesus because Armageddon is coming in 1844. Um, I mean 1914, um, maybe 1915 or 1918 or--1925 or 1975 or before 2001 or---heck--just don't go to college or make anything out of your life--IT IS ANY SECOND NOW!!
6.The only valuable work that exists for TRUE christians to do is sell (um, get contributions for) Watchtower publications. Those publications repeat all the above).
7.Whatever the Governing Body says is true---at the time. If it is wrong---it wasn't wrong because it is wrong but because it was right and too soon to say it.
8.Everybody but JW's deserve to die.
Now if you get rid of those 8 points and ignore the Blood Transfusions, Military Neutrality, Political embargo, free speech suppressions, etc----what do you have left but a lodge meeting at the local Elk's club?
Take stripes off a zebra and you have a white horse.
Reform Jehovah's Witnesses and they vanish like the wicked witch of the west when the bucket of water is splashed on her head!
Terry
-
91
What is your Favorite Scene from a Movie?
by Sweetp0985 ini thought about this topic last night for the board when watching one of my favorite movies.. 1. the man from snowy river- the part when they are going after the expensive colt and they get to the edge of the cliff and all the other riders stop and "jim" keeps going and leaps down the cliff after the wild horses.
i absolutely love that part of the movie...everytime its on i have to watch it, if not just to see this part only.. 2. love and basketball- when she tells him she will play for his heart...awwww first time i started crying.
and then the music they had playing in the background made it even worse.
-
-
Terry
LAWRENCE of ARABIA: Lawrence blows out the match and instantly the jump to the sun coming up out of the desert.
SPARTACUS: The excaped slave Spartacus is crucified and hangs dying thinking he has failed in everything. Then his wife appears on her way to freedom and shows the dying father that his son is alive and free.
THE GHOST AND MRS. MUIR: At the point of death the ghost reappears to claim Mrs. Muir who is now transformed to the young and beautiful woman she once was.
CLEOPATRA: Marc Antony, who had betrayed his soldiers by leaving the battle to chase the retreating Cleopatra, his love, awakes to find his troops have abandoned him. He rides out to provoke them into killing him. All his troops refuse to fight and ignore his blows as he screams:
"Will no one grant Antony an honorable way to die?"THE MIRACLE WORKER: Annie, the teacher, holds the blind Helen Keller's hand under a flowing faucet and she suddenly becomes aware! WATER! She then makes the hand signal signifying "water".
AFFAIR TO REMEMBER: Cary Grant discovers the fact that Deborah Kerr has been crippled and that is why she failed to keep their rendezvous at the empire state building.
THE COLOR PURPLE: The abusive husband comes to his senses and pays to have his estranged wife's sister returned to her for a reunion. The arrival of the car, the flowing robes of her sister and children, the evening light, the meeting almost make me faint in exultant tears. Spielberg's most under-rated best.
A.I. Artificial Intelligence: The robot child is finally granted his wish to have his mother love him.
ALIENS: The final confrontation between Ripley and the Queen fighting over the little girl Newt.
THE USUAL SUSPECTS: The police interrogator begins realizing who Keyser Soze really is!
CINEMA PARADISO: The child who helped the projectionist is grown up now. He edits together every piece of film the local Catholic censor forced him to remove out of all the movies through all the decades. He threads the projector and goes to his seat in the lonely theatre which is now defunct. The film flickers and suddenly! All the most beautiful kisses in movie history, one by one, in a cascade of unforgettable snippets of passion are played against Ennio Morriocone's gorgeous musical score. Now THAT is a movie lover's favorite moment.