Posts by Terry

17

I have peered into the abyss and seen the Watchtower evil !

by Undaunted Danny in

i have peered into the abyss and seen the evil.

the jehovah's witnesses are diabolical disciples of satan.they do eat their young and have murdered more innocents than the global terrorists .

we have tackled a wide range of topics here,such as wrecked family's and marriages,and their blasphemous gospel of gobbledygook.

Terry

What is hard to believe is not impossible to prove.

The history of the Watchtower's "divine" instructions requires investigation. You have to spend the time to read the old publications.

1.You have to realize that people believe what they read in the Watchtower and Awake!

2. You must understand that humble people who think they are obeying the voice of God will not hesitate to follow weird advice to their own detriment.

3.A vast array of downright deadly misinformation has been published as Jehovah's mouthpiece and those who heeded the messege printed often destroyed themselves.

To what do I refer?

1.Quack Cancer cures that do nothing

2.Pasteurization of milk is responsible for nearly ALL THE ILLS in society today.

3.Germ theory is bogus. Germs don't cause disease.

4.Tuberculosis serum is deadly

5.Avoid antiseptics because germs are good for you

6.Stirring up hatred in religious and patriotic groups

7.Insistence on "neutrality" that leads to beatings, torture and death

8.Blood issues resulting in death

9.Advocating no higher education, discouraging marriage, praising those who sell their possession and pioneer (in times of date setting prophecies) leads to financial ruin and no retirement support.

10. Equating rape with fornication if the victim doesn't scream

11.Failure to help abuse victims

The impact on millions of people over the decades has destroyed families, emotional health, mental stability, financial security, self-confidence, and has ended lives.

Don't underestimate the death toll of the Watchtower Society.

Danny knows what he is talking about.

It is hard to believe; it is not impossible to prove.

59

How Many Here Left The Organization? How Many Got Kicked Out??

by minimus in

jw
friends

just curious.....

I had already left the organization. I stopped going to the Kingdom Hall. There wasn't anything at all there. It was an exercise in habit. It was a bad habit like picking my nose or trying to secretly pass gas without making that telltale sound.

But, I was called on the telephone to meet with the judicial committee.

So, I left and got kicked out too.

Why did I ever comply with the request to attend the judicial committee meeting? I didn't have to; there was no secret police arresting me.

It was just the habit. What habit? The habit TO OBEY.

See what it got me?

20

Understanding why Evil Happens....Same or Different?

by jgnat in

this last sunday's public talk was titled, "why take refuge in jehovah?

" the speaker had studied his watchtowers well, and provided an unattributed quote (possibly from october 1, 2002 wt) as proof that christendom's churches don't have the answer:i have been asked hundreds of times in my life why god allows tragedy and suffering.

i have to confess that i really do not know the answer totally, even to my own satisfaction.

Terry

I think I understand.

I also think the problem is with the premise: god.

God is the one who doesn't have the free will.

We either have to change the definition of God as all-powerful, all-knowing, loving, just, a parent etc, or,

rid ourselves of the false premise.

It is painful to do that. It "feels" like we are killing our own parents.

But, one night, as I was about to go to sleep I knelt by my bed as I always had since I was a tiny boy. I put my palms together the way my grandmother showed me as a child. I earnestly sought the deepest and most profound part of me for expressions of worth to offer my heavenly father.

I began my prayer as I always did: "Heavenly father, Jehovah....."

And then I stopped. I opened my eyes and unclasped my hands.

It was suddenly clear as daylight. It was amazingly clear. I was just talking TO MYSELF. There was nobody there but me.

It was like waking from a lifelong dream. The dream was over.

There was nobody there. Only me.

I've not prayed since. I'm enormously relieved to know, finally, that I am in charge of my own life. If it gets screwed up--it isn't demons and it isn't angelic guidance and it isn't the hand of gawd.

None of us has a channel of communication to a super being; an invisible daddy. Nobody is looking out for us. There is no vast plan of the ages. There is no heaven and no Armageddon. There are no sacred mysteries. There are no end day prophecies to puzzle over.

There are only opportunities to make each day a little better for myself and the people around me.

I get a space of time in which to figure out everything I am able to figure out. I get to take my best shot. I can try and mend the world in some small way, or, merely take up space and waste time.

Once I let go of that illusion, that dream, that invisible parent "out there"; once I stopped talking to myself as though there was anything but imagination---I began to heal.

That's where I'm coming from. If there really was the kind of God we all grow up thinking lurks in the heavens---I'd expect a bit more out of the old boy. The instinct to do good would go a long way.

As it is. We're own our own.

Just one man's opinion. Your mileage may vary.

20

Understanding why Evil Happens....Same or Different?

by jgnat in

this last sunday's public talk was titled, "why take refuge in jehovah?

" the speaker had studied his watchtowers well, and provided an unattributed quote (possibly from october 1, 2002 wt) as proof that christendom's churches don't have the answer:i have been asked hundreds of times in my life why god allows tragedy and suffering.

i have to confess that i really do not know the answer totally, even to my own satisfaction.

Terry

Big Tex opined:

" But as for God, if he were to step in and solve one problem, say drugs, then I for one would want to know why he doesn't solve child abuse, or world hunger, or war and so on. Where does he stop? And at some point then, with him calling the shots on how to live, what to eat, how to think, wouldn't our own independent thought and free will cease? Wouldn't we be nothing more than marionettes with God pulling the strings?"

((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((()))))))))))))))))))))))))))))(((((((((((((((((((((((()))))))))))))))))

No no no, a thousand times no. Did I mention: "no"?

Let me try and explain why I strongly disagree with this. I've given it a great deal of thought. The whole "free will" argument is bogus. It isn't well thought out. People just say it automatically. If we didn't have free will we'd just be puppets or robots. NO.

Imagine you are going to design a car. Whenever somebody gets inside the car, sometimes the door opens and sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes the car starts and sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes it goes forward and sometimes it might just go backward regardless of the gear shift indicator. Would this car be worth owning? After all, the car is a glorified tool for travel. Shouldn't a tool have a purpose and be functional for its purpose?

Imagine you turn on your computer and it turns itself back off again. Or, you'll type in a website address and the computer takes you somewhere else entirely. Would that be a useful and worthwhile computer to own?

(One more)

Imagine you own a pet and the pet craps in the house, pees on you while you're watching tv and bites your children when they pet it. Are you happy with this pet? Is it going to stay in your house very long?

Now what do all the above have to do with any discussion of FREE WILL?

Things with a purpose are not of any value at all if they don't serve their purpose. The element of unpredictability makes them unreliable and even dangerous.

Nobody would design an unpredictable machine on purpose. Nobody would own a computer or even a pet that was more trouble than it was worth.

If you will agree with just that one statement we can continue. If you don't buy that; then, you can stop reading now and go on to something else. We won't be having any meeting of the minds. But, if you can agree that UNPREDICTABLE behavior in a machine, a tool or a pet is a nusiance and of little benefit (if not an outright danger) then read on. There is more.

Life consists of doing things. Doing things requires choices. Agreed?

Most of life's problems happen when we DON'T KNOW which choice to make. Or, when we make the wrong choice. Agreed?

Which would you prefer?

1.Automatically having the correct information that enables a perfect choice?

or

2.Trying to make the best choice and perhaps getting it screwed up?

Further, what if you had the INSTINCT to eat the right food? What if you had the INSTINCT to exercise? What if you had the INSTINCT to avoid harmful activities? Would having the CORRECT INSTINCT be in any way inferior to making a wrong guess?

Think of a quiz show as an example. Is it better to KNOW the answers to the quiz and win all the money? Or, is it in some way preferable to guess and perhaps get it wrong?

What if correct knowledge WAS INSTINCTUAL? What if there was no false information that could mislead you? Would you prefer taking your chances without the right answers? Is a hit and miss strategy really better?

Now I know I've belabored this point over and over. But, I'm trying to set up my presentation so that the fundamental idea comes through loud and clear. Here it is:

WHAT WORKS is always better than WHAT MIGHT work.

Or, to put a fine point on it: there is no advantage to having free will because all free will offers in place of instinctive correctness is the opportunity to screw something up.

INSTEAD OF GOD SOLVING ALL OF OUR PROBLEMS we would not make them in the first place IF ONLY WE DIDN'T HAVE THE FREEDOM OF CHOICE TO MAKE WRONG CHOICES.

Instead of Freedom of choice being a wonderful benefit to mankind; it has ruined us in every way. As long as we make guesses, choose hurtful schemes, insist on the freedom to harm and destroy; we create enough evil to make life a disaster.

31

Questions For Jehovah's Witnesses Regarding Doctrine

by Corvin in

recently, xlaurax asked for some good questions to ask jw's when they come to visit.

the following is taken from ray franz's book, crisis of conscience, pages 330 and 331. these are very good questions and should do the job nicely.. .

what plain statement in scripture could anyone, governing body member or anyone else, point to and say, "here, the bible clearly says":.

Terry

Write the sentence: "I am what I am today."

Every few minutes erase one of the letters and rewrite it.

Repeat this for, ummmm, say: seventy years.

At the end of seventy years the sentence still reads:

I am what I am today.

Is it the same sentence?

We are bundles of molecules which are themselves bundles of atoms. The atoms, we are told, are bundles of quarks. Repeat ad nauseum.

Are we more than the momentary total arrangement of those parts?

What if each part is replaced every few minutes with "other" atoms, molecules, cells, etc.? What then?

Why draw the line at WHAT WE ARE?

We only remember an event once. After that, we remember how we last remembered the event.

We aren't who we were. We are barely who we are. An inventory isn't possible. So, we rely on a list. The list is an inventory of exactly what it is that is "us".

Let us take out the list and check it. What does it say?

"I am what I am today".

44

Why do animals die?

by ezekiel3 in

as an animal lover, i have some questions jws have never dared to breach (according to a search of jw publications).

if humans die because of inheriting adam and eve's sin, why do animals die?

were animals created imperfect?.

Terry

The human mind.........

Is it the ghost in the machine?

Or.....................is it the alligator shape of a stratus cloud?

What is a cloud but water molecules with light bouncing off a certain way; and we below look up to see an alligator?!

There is no alligator.

The cloud.....is it THERE or is it only a becoming/slowly unbecoming?

Shuffle a deck of cards and flip five over and look at them. By themselves they aren't much but waxed cardboard with symbols. But, in a poker game for high stakes those arrangements can be feast or famine.

We are a poker hand. We are a cloud. We are something that wasn't, then is and then isn't anymore. You might say we are in transition. But, our minds wake up out of the slumber of nothingness and suddenly BECOME. That state of BEING sees the nothing of yesterday and the certainty of nothing in some dim tomorrow and shrieks! What? No ME tomorrow?

What is the mind? It is the voice that asks the question : "What is the mind?"

Where does the mind come from? There is no :FROM. There are just cards dealt on a table in space. There are water molecules hanging in an August sky bedazzled by the lingering sun in its combustible journey toward oblivion.

Who am I? I am Mr. NOW. Yesterday I was Mr. Was. Tomorrow I'm Mr. Maybe

The mind reads the symbols on the waxed cardboard and bets $500 bucks.

The mind sees alligators circling heaven.

The mind calls itself "I" and shrieks at the darkness of "not I".

We are a phenomenon among many. This particular phenomenon is very attached to seeing itself in the mirror and lingering upon that illusion. It craves permanence. But, in so doing, we deny that unknown something down the road its chance to come into being. How? Well, we are its parts.

19

Dinosaurs...What are your thoughts?

by Crooked Lumpy Vessel in

the "why do animals die" thread got me thinking about the dinosaurs.

why would god create a species of animals and then completely destroy them or allow them to be destroyed.

would he do that to humans too?.

Terry

What an artist or artisan makes reveals who they are. A carpenter who builds a table that has rough edges that allows splinters and uneven legs that allow rocking or a slanted top that provokes spilling tells us something about his expertise and sense of excellence.

A dressmaker that sews clothing that doesn't fit; a cook who produces food that is unhealthy or inedible; a toymaker that builds dangerous or obnoxious toys---all these artisans reveal in their handiwork who and what they are.

Child psychologists make a study of the artwork of children to look for signs of mental or emotional disturbance. Why? When a human is creative they put something of themselves and their mental ambience into the finished product.

So to, if there were an Intelligent Designer and Creator of heaven and Earth and animal and man; the character of that creator would be visited upon the creation itself.

When I look at the millions of years of dinosaurs and what that ended up being and then I look at animals and mankind---I think I get a pretty good picture of where all this comes from.

Hint: it isn't a healthy, happy, stable and loving intelligence! More like haphazard happenstance and the chaos of unbridled forces clashing and reshaping over eons.

61

THE WEAKEST LINK---fatal flaws in Watchtower Chronology

by Terry in

watchtower chronology suffers from weak logical links.

after all, they start with an unproven premise and begin linking and linking and linking and suddenly they produce the rabbit out of the hat.

1914 is the rabbit .

Terry

Scholar?

Scholarly is as scholarly does.

A pithy way of putting it: If the WT said it; it must be true.

First of all, you are not a scholar. I'm sorry, it isn't possible. If you are sympathetic to WT chronology you can't be a scholar because your education and access to the latest historical and archaelogical evidence would banish such a premise instantly.

Secondly, you cannot be a scholar and be a Jehovah's Witness. The Governing Body doesn't like the smell of higher education. If they catch a whiff of it on anybody's clothing the end is near for you!

Thirdly, a scholar would have the academic expertise to present a lucid argument. I can detect no argument on your behalf. I do detect a mental predisposition to flatter yourself. Methinks thou dost lay it on a bit thick with the pretense at credentials.

My guess is this. Scholar is a kid, probably no older than 25 who is a lurking JW upset at what he reads that threatens his orthodoxy. Possessing no data or skill at presenting it, scholar tries a bluff: "I am too important to explain myself."

Well, I've called the bluff. I asked you to lay out your argument and you ducked out the back door and ran down the alley into the back entrance to the Kingdom Hall.

Either make a clear exposition in the future or save us all some time diddling with you.

Kapish?

20

Which Bible?

by Hoofie in

jw
friends

hello friendly folk,.

i'm afraid i don't have time to scroll through everything on this site, so i thought i'd ask the question instead - does anybody recommend a "neutral" translation of the bible that i can use as the basis for my studies..?

i just want to start doing my own research and i'd be grateful for any advice from fellow ex-jws as to where to start.

Terry

If I could help save you a lot of wasted time I'd tell you this.

Don't make the same mistake I made for 20 years of my life.

I kept starting over and over with the Bible. I taught myself a bit of Greek and I bought the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance and I studied hermenutics and read all the commentaries, etc. etc. etc.

START WITH YOUR PREMISE. The Premise is the foundation. Everything rests on the foundation.

Start with: IS THE BIBLE a reliable document of divine communication.

Unless you actually discover the answer to this question you are repairing the roof of a building half-eaten by termites.

Truly, I urge you to spend at least a month on this. There are three kinds of books about religion. Jehovah's Witnesses only read the first kind.

1.Books that are apologies for a religious point of view.

Those kinds of books are repair jobs. They exist to patch the holes. They spend a lot of time jury-rigging doctrines to make them come out sounding reasonable.Those books are propaganda and you will learn NOTHING from them.

2.Books with wild speculations about Bible-related subjects. These can be rot about angels and shrouds of Turin, and missing arks of the covenant, etc. These are soap-opera level nonsensical fluff. Don't waste your time.

3.Scholarly analysis books. These books deal with history, archeology, objective analyses and academic examinations of facts, figures, myths and ancient people.

I'd stick with number 3.

READ:

1.Who Wrote the Bible by Richard Elliot Friedman

http://users.cyberone.com.au/myers/bible.html

2.The Battle for God (A History of Fundamentalism) by Karen Armstrong

http://www.christianethicstoday.com/Issue/029/The%20Battle%20For%20God%20%20By%20Karen%20Armstrong_029_29_.htm

3.The Mythmaker (Paul and the Invention of Christianity) by Talmudic scholar Hyam Maccoby

http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/maccoby2.htm

4.Secret Origins of the Bible by Tim Callahan

http://www.cs.umd.edu/~mvz/bible/callahan.pdf

5.101 Myths of the Bible by Gary Greenberg

http://ggreenberg.tripod.com/101myths-book.htm

Why read these and other books like them?

Ask yourself this question: If the bible isn't really a divine messege from God---why waste my life studying it?

Is it possible the foundation of Christianity is a grab-bag of myths, patchwork traditions, hearsay histories, deliberate doctrinal manipulations and political propagandas?

If you read the other-side of the story and end up deciding the Bible is true after all, won't you be relieved you made an honest investigation?

44

Why do animals die?

by ezekiel3 in

as an animal lover, i have some questions jws have never dared to breach (according to a search of jw publications).

if humans die because of inheriting adam and eve's sin, why do animals die?

were animals created imperfect?.

Terry

If you ever get the chance to go to an art museum that has a painting by the French artist, Georges Seurat, you'll stand back and see magnificent scenes of brilliant color, vivid detail and enchanting figures of interest.

You'll say, "That is a fine scene with people enjoying themselves in the park on Sunday---oh, look! A pet monkey!"

But, don't just stand there. Get closer. Go on.....walk right up to the painting and get a much closer look.

Put your nose a few inches away from the canvas. What do you see now? The scenes and the people and the monkey have all vanished, haven't they?

Yes, there are only little dots of pure color. Mere dots. What happened to the people? Where is the monkey? Why are there only itty bitty colored dots hugging each other?

Is this a painting or a canvas filled with hundreds of thousands of dots?

Like most things, it depends on how you want to view it and what "meaning" you wish to attach and what context you're standing in.

The life of man and monkey, ape and snail, fruitfly and badger is no different from a painting by Georges Seurat. We are vivid and colorful and create a interesting scene. But, we are all made of dots.

You can call them atoms or quarks or quirks--it matters not. We are all made of the same elements. And the TRUTH of life and death is in how those dots are put together; side by side.

Our planet, Earth, is a large playchest with building blocks. The forces of nature, sunlight, gravity, chemistry, physics shuffle these blocks around. The dots, side by side, are like arrangements of blocks. For a little while they are a stegosaurus and for another while they are disassembled. Then parts of those blocks become a Sequoia tree, a cigarette, a skunk's kidney stone and even a booger in the nose of an Alaskan fisherman.

Arrangements of colored dots. Assemblies of blocks. Atomic alignments. Cells, molecules.....it is all the same thing.

Life and death: what are they?

Arrangements. Happenings. Casual alignments. Temporary fluxes. Sometimes they flux me and sometimes they flux you.

So, you see--it matters not whether man or beast. We are tinker toys all. Enjoy your moment on life's canvas. But, don't be selfish with your colored dots. We all make way for the next painting, the next pile of blocks the next organism.

I tell my children, as we crouch before a field of wild flowers dazzling the swishing grasses under an umbrella of brilliant blue sky: "These are our destiny. We are earth and flower and cloud and wind. When we pass we dissolve like sugar in cups of cherry Kool-aid. We are swallowed by the beauty of the soil. We are delicious! And we are free to become......and become we shall. Anything, everything and all."