Most of my strong battles and disagreements here have not been against soul-baring, battered people that some seem to suggest a high percentage of forum members are (I have seen little evidence of this bewildered and fragile bunch , rather the opposite, I see most with grim determination and a new self respect won back from the Watchtower, I see few victims here) but I have seen a pattern - those who have asked the loudest for respect (a thinly veiled request not to challenge anything they post rather than recognising that taking the time to make a detailed response is showing respect) are those whose beliefs are the least substantial. I see no atheists asking that people treat them or their views with kid gloves. With proof comes security. With evidence comes surety. With research and sweat comes self respect. Most of the people who post here , from all viewpoints, are magnificent and earn their forum respect. As long as we all abide by the forum rules I would like to champion those brave enough to post and not seek to impose a false morality and turn this into some simple insubstantial back slapping cuddle festival. This forum and its mods keep the place clear of trolls but otherwise this place is the most vibrant and powerful community for ex-JWs (and us outsiders) bar none.
Posts by Qcmbr
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207Ripping a persons faith away, a heavy responsibility?
by Seraphim23 in[if gte mso 9]><xml> <o:officedocumentsettings> <o:allowpng /> </o:officedocumentsettings> </xml><![endif].
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207
Ripping a persons faith away, a heavy responsibility?
by Seraphim23 in[if gte mso 9]><xml> <o:officedocumentsettings> <o:allowpng /> </o:officedocumentsettings> </xml><![endif].
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Qcmbr
Many people will struggle like hell to defend the bag of rocks they carry. Once relieved only the fools regret not having the former weight and will start to collect new debris. It is an exhausting struggle to prise a loved shackle from a devoted slave but if seen through to the end is a worthwhile endeavour. Most people are too worried and polite to even try and like motorway rubberneckers drive by expressing shock, trite sympathy and the odd judgemental soundbite. There are those who are worse than all , they carry pocketfulls of extra pebbles to add to others' sacks; they are easiest to spot when they go by the name of 'Elder' but they are all around us.
Please know that those most outspoken here who defend rational , fact driven logic and fight hard to expose, examine and discredit magical thinking are not the enemy. Should even one single speck of rubble in someone's backpack be found to be factually correct it will be treated like precious metal. If it helps ask yourself if the person you find on the opposite side of a discussion is trying to remove insubstantial, evidence lite rubble and replace it with biteable, weighable gold and if they are , struggle less. The fiercest critics are often fighting hardest to help you.
Thanks terapod sapien and Abaddon for helping shift my bag.
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I wanted to punch this elder so bad!
by OneDayillBeFree inso i decided to attend the meeting last.
since i haven't gone in about 2 weeks, and i leave as soon as it ends, and elder decided to corner me at the end.
lately i've been through some very depressing family issues that are non-jw related so i haven't been my best at acting like i care about the org.
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Qcmbr
"When our leaders speak, the thinking has been done. When they propose a plan–it is God’s plan. When they point the way, there is no other which is safe. When they give direction, it should mark the end of controversy. God works in no other way. To think otherwise, without immediate repentance, may cost one his faith, may destroy his testimony, and leave him a stranger to the kingdom of God." - LDS Improvement Era 1945
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62
Enemies Of Reason -Richard Dawkins
by frankiespeakin inhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vcs751gcp10.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=52j5stxkbkq.
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Qcmbr
“If, on the Sabbath day, when we are assembled here to worship the Lord, one of the Elders should be prompted to give us a lecture on any branch of education with which he is acquainted, is it outside the pale of our religion?
“Or if an Elder shall give us a lecture upon astronomy, chemistry, or geology, our religion embraces it all. It matters not what the subject be, if it tends to improve the mind, exalt the feelings, and enlarge the capacity. The truth that is in all the arts and sciences forms a part of our religion. Faith is no more a part of it than any other true principle of philosophy.”
- Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 1, pp. 334-335.The early bravado subtely changes to a modern day less certain and guarded embrace of truth.
"Church history can be so interesting and so inspiring as to be a powerful tool indeed for building faith. If not properly written or properly taught, it may be a faith destroyer…
"There is a temptation for the writer or the teacher of Church history to want to tell everything, whether it is worthy or faith promoting or not. Some things that are true are not very useful… "
- Boyd K Packer at BYU.
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19
Did you "Pray" for a "blessing" and get one?
by LoisLane looking for Superman inwhat about all the other 1,001 times you prayed for an intervention/blessing, and didn't get it?
did you think you were "bad" or just figure god was too busy to bother with you?.
just lois.
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Qcmbr
If Christian prayer worked then medical/financial/political/social/sporting miracles would abound and US hospitals would be empty places, nobody would be poor, everyone would eat well and you could tell the level of someone's faith simply by the health and wealth of said individual. The obvious truth is that prayer may have mild meditation benefits and better personal planning effects but it has absolutely zero material impact on the world because there is no spiritual, invisible world ,accessible by telepathy, controlling the real world and just itching to jump in and muck up physics by miracles.
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62
Enemies Of Reason -Richard Dawkins
by frankiespeakin inhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vcs751gcp10.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=52j5stxkbkq.
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Qcmbr
All religions, when they start, are open to the current knowledge of the time and can claim to embrace it because they build in the latest ideas available. Each year thereafter they struggle to defend their position as people discover new things. As we experiment we discover new truths and we discard old modpels for better ones.There is no shame or loss of confidence because reason drives the actual search for knowledge. Faith on the other hand, requires a fixed view despite subsequent evidence otherwise the final reward is at risk.Mormonism once claimed to embrace all truth, including scientific, because once it had nothing to fear from them, now it is running scared. We have incontrovertable dna proof that Israelites were not the "principal" ancestors of the American Indians, we have proof that the facsimiles used in the Book of Abraham are standard funery texts containing none of the supposed revelations, we have incontrovertable proof that there has been no global flood, no time of paradisical immortality for all life, we have proof that no huge undiscovered societies once lived in the Americas ( the same way we can say with certainty that Scotland was not once a bustling Ming dynasty province), we have proof that the prophets have no discernment (Hoffman forgeries) and we have proof of how stars produce light. mormonism is scrabbling to keep itself current and will unravel as its past catches up to it.
As for offering private PM discussions on this board I suspect you have played your hand and revealed that you are in missionary mode and looking for converts. This board helped me to exit the church based upon seeing how similar core ideas were and how processes for control were shared. I invite you to, in public, in a specific thread , see if your testimony and truths can withstand honest and sustained reason and facts. Should you come out having put all 'enemies of truth' to the sword you would have done us all a favour otherwise , together, we would have shown , for all to see and benefit thereby, that Mormonism is not where seekers of a new faith post JW exit should look.
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136
After the cult how many reject faith in anything?
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Qcmbr
I've got a place for religious style faith ( hope) in humanity but an abhorrence for faith as a means to find knowledge. The historical and cultural multiplicity of faith based religions is all the evidence I need that faith makes people very certain about provably false assertions, so certain that they will reject all information that disagrees with the object of their faith. Faith also allows gross immorality imo.
so ... atheist.
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Enemies Of Reason -Richard Dawkins
by frankiespeakin inhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vcs751gcp10.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=52j5stxkbkq.
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Qcmbr
I want to prod ColdSteel a bit to respond (hopefully).
The truth is that if God emblazoned incontrovertible evidence across the heavens, many would still reject Him.
This is interesting, it's also not what Mormonism teaches:
Mosiah 27:31 Yea, a every knee shall bow, and every tongue confess before him. Yea, even at the last day, when all men shall stand to be b judged of him, then shall they confess that he is c God ; then shall they confess, who live d without God in the world, that the judgment of an everlasting punishment is just upon them; and they shall quake, and tremble, and shrink beneath the glance of his e all-searching eye.
The actual reason taught in LDS dogma is that Faith is the first principle of the Gospel:
4th Article Faith - We believe that the first principles and a ordinances of the Gospel are: first, b Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, c Repentance ; third, d Baptism by e immersion for the f remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of g hands for the h gift of the Holy Ghost.
And that the reason why faith is required is:
Ether 12:6 And now, I, Moroni, would speak somewhat concerning these things; I would show unto the world that a faith is things which are b hoped for and c not seen; wherefore, dispute not because ye see not, for ye receive no d witness until after the e trial of your faith.
Therefore this earthly life is a trial, to see who and what we are without accurate knowledge, in short we are required, according to LDS dogma, to live by faith without knowledge as a test and trial which, if we pass then gives accurate knowledge.
Alma 42:10 Therefore, as they had become a carnal , sensual, and devilish, by b nature , this c probationary state became a state for them to prepare; it became a preparatory state.
So returning to the quote above , it's nothing to do with those who would reject God (I suspect that there would be almost 100% acceptance of the existence of a god who gave 'incontrovertable evidence' much as there is 100% acceptance of the existence of the sun ) but more to do with invalidating this earthly test (i.e. God wandering onto the stage during the exam gives all the pupils the cheat sheet answers.)
Therefore, LDS acceptance of faith as the first principle of the gospel is in direct and violent contradiction with the scientific method. LDS faith makes the lack of information the test condition and the human , subjective response the outcome. Science is unconcerned with such self-important and utterly delusional fluff and simply seeks to explain all observed phenomenon. The LDS god would be ruining the test if he ever gave any real answers that were useful for mankind.
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Can anyone decode this?
by JWB incan anyone decode this?.
catgacaaatttcaccaattcgaatagccgcc.
this is not a trick question.
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Qcmbr
HDKFHQFE-P genome sequence?
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62
Enemies Of Reason -Richard Dawkins
by frankiespeakin inhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vcs751gcp10.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=52j5stxkbkq.
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Qcmbr
Cold Steel - let's discuss on another thread if you'd like so we don't get too far off the original topic (please , I'd like to do that!) but here is something that sums up core LDS challenges (by a member like me) http://www.roadkilldelight.com/NOM/JR.htm which I'll post rather than quote.