Night my online friends. B*gger off to hell my online adversaries. (just kidding - there is no hell - I hope you step on a lego) :)
Posts by Qcmbr
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207Ripping a persons faith away, a heavy responsibility?
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56
I wanted to punch this elder so bad!
by OneDayillBeFree inso i decided to attend the meeting last.
since i haven't gone in about 2 weeks, and i leave as soon as it ends, and elder decided to corner me at the end.
lately i've been through some very depressing family issues that are non-jw related so i haven't been my best at acting like i care about the org.
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Qcmbr
Cold Steel - the biggest challenge , in hindsight, I had whilst a member was not in knowing what made the church right (its easy to find evidence for a belief) but in knowing what, for me , would be conclusive evidence that it was untrue. Having no boundaries on my unbelief level allowed me to accept many things that, in hindsight, are plainly untrue about the LDS faith. For example , what evidence would it take to prove the BoM untrue? Answer that and we know the strength of your commitment - the fluffier the answer the fluffier the trust in it.
Just to labour the point. Had I accepted that the BoM is a 100% literal historical record and agreed (with myself) that finding evidence of impossible situations would invalidate it I would be compelled to reject it from any of the following samples:
1 - Anachronistic window
Jaredites - "... from perhaps 3250 to 2800 B.C." http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/transcripts/?id=28 Ether 2: 23 And the Lord said unto the brother of Jared: What will ye that I should do that ye may have light in your vessels? For behold, ye cannot have windows, for they will be dashed in pieces; neither shall ye take fire with you, for ye shall not go by the light of fire.
The Romans were the first known to use glass for windows. In Alexandria ca. 100 AD, cast glass windows, albeit with poor optical properties, began to appear. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Window)
2 - Very complex Sericulture (making silk) reliant upon Mulberry plant not available
Alma 1:29 (roughly 90 BC - Americas) And now, because of the steadiness of the church they began to be exceedingly rich, having abundance of all things whatsoever they stood in need—an abundance of flocks and herds, and fatlings of every kind, and also abundance of grain, and of gold, and of silver, and of precious things, and abundance of silk and fine-twined linen, and all manner of good homely cloth.
http://www.insects.org/ced1/seric.html - history of sericulture showing almost impossibiliy of it being in Americas before European colonisation.
3 - Simple writing errors
2 Nephi 5
15 And I did teach my people to build buildings, and to work in all manner of wood, and of iron, and of copper, and of brass, and of steel, and of gold, and of silver, and of precious ores, which were in great abundance.
16 And I, Nephi, did build a temple; and I did construct it after the manner of the temple of Solomon save it were not built of so many precious things; for they were not to be found upon the land, wherefore, it could not be built like unto Solomon’s temple.
Shrugs - that's before we even leap into the real problems.
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207
Ripping a persons faith away, a heavy responsibility?
by Seraphim23 in[if gte mso 9]><xml> <o:officedocumentsettings> <o:allowpng /> </o:officedocumentsettings> </xml><![endif].
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Qcmbr
Seraph.
I don't mind it, I'm just wary of it. This place has quietened down a lot since 'she who must not be named' left. It goes in cycles. Every now and then we get a character who , for whatever reason, see this place as a potting shed to incubate their latest (almost exclusively religious) fantasy or who feel duty bound to fight the watchtower corner. Either they put up a good fight and people begin to see them as cherished furniture or they go mean and dirty and we all have a glorious rumble and someone gets banned. There are people of a sensitive nature who will sometimes post an inopportune comment or post a well hashed fallacy and they get shot down quick but most of the time people genuinely care for each other and you'll frequently see olive leaves chucked around with gender neutral abandon when a thread has gone too far.
If anyone has genuinely got hurt feelings because something got too personal I do feel for them.. and sincerly hope they grow a pair (meant in the bro. group hug grr way) and come back because true acceptance and growth comes from dancing, often badly, on the dance floor not hiding in the toilets.
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Only if you're a Brit! LOL
by tornapart inhttp://www.buzzfeed.com/lukelewis/things-youll-find-funny-if-youre-british.
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Qcmbr
Bloody good read sir.
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207
Ripping a persons faith away, a heavy responsibility?
by Seraphim23 in[if gte mso 9]><xml> <o:officedocumentsettings> <o:allowpng /> </o:officedocumentsettings> </xml><![endif].
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Qcmbr
Most of my strong battles and disagreements here have not been against soul-baring, battered people that some seem to suggest a high percentage of forum members are (I have seen little evidence of this bewildered and fragile bunch , rather the opposite, I see most with grim determination and a new self respect won back from the Watchtower, I see few victims here) but I have seen a pattern - those who have asked the loudest for respect (a thinly veiled request not to challenge anything they post rather than recognising that taking the time to make a detailed response is showing respect) are those whose beliefs are the least substantial. I see no atheists asking that people treat them or their views with kid gloves. With proof comes security. With evidence comes surety. With research and sweat comes self respect. Most of the people who post here , from all viewpoints, are magnificent and earn their forum respect. As long as we all abide by the forum rules I would like to champion those brave enough to post and not seek to impose a false morality and turn this into some simple insubstantial back slapping cuddle festival. This forum and its mods keep the place clear of trolls but otherwise this place is the most vibrant and powerful community for ex-JWs (and us outsiders) bar none.
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207
Ripping a persons faith away, a heavy responsibility?
by Seraphim23 in[if gte mso 9]><xml> <o:officedocumentsettings> <o:allowpng /> </o:officedocumentsettings> </xml><![endif].
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Qcmbr
Many people will struggle like hell to defend the bag of rocks they carry. Once relieved only the fools regret not having the former weight and will start to collect new debris. It is an exhausting struggle to prise a loved shackle from a devoted slave but if seen through to the end is a worthwhile endeavour. Most people are too worried and polite to even try and like motorway rubberneckers drive by expressing shock, trite sympathy and the odd judgemental soundbite. There are those who are worse than all , they carry pocketfulls of extra pebbles to add to others' sacks; they are easiest to spot when they go by the name of 'Elder' but they are all around us.
Please know that those most outspoken here who defend rational , fact driven logic and fight hard to expose, examine and discredit magical thinking are not the enemy. Should even one single speck of rubble in someone's backpack be found to be factually correct it will be treated like precious metal. If it helps ask yourself if the person you find on the opposite side of a discussion is trying to remove insubstantial, evidence lite rubble and replace it with biteable, weighable gold and if they are , struggle less. The fiercest critics are often fighting hardest to help you.
Thanks terapod sapien and Abaddon for helping shift my bag.
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56
I wanted to punch this elder so bad!
by OneDayillBeFree inso i decided to attend the meeting last.
since i haven't gone in about 2 weeks, and i leave as soon as it ends, and elder decided to corner me at the end.
lately i've been through some very depressing family issues that are non-jw related so i haven't been my best at acting like i care about the org.
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Qcmbr
"When our leaders speak, the thinking has been done. When they propose a plan–it is God’s plan. When they point the way, there is no other which is safe. When they give direction, it should mark the end of controversy. God works in no other way. To think otherwise, without immediate repentance, may cost one his faith, may destroy his testimony, and leave him a stranger to the kingdom of God." - LDS Improvement Era 1945
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62
Enemies Of Reason -Richard Dawkins
by frankiespeakin inhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vcs751gcp10.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=52j5stxkbkq.
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Qcmbr
“If, on the Sabbath day, when we are assembled here to worship the Lord, one of the Elders should be prompted to give us a lecture on any branch of education with which he is acquainted, is it outside the pale of our religion?
“Or if an Elder shall give us a lecture upon astronomy, chemistry, or geology, our religion embraces it all. It matters not what the subject be, if it tends to improve the mind, exalt the feelings, and enlarge the capacity. The truth that is in all the arts and sciences forms a part of our religion. Faith is no more a part of it than any other true principle of philosophy.”
- Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 1, pp. 334-335.The early bravado subtely changes to a modern day less certain and guarded embrace of truth.
"Church history can be so interesting and so inspiring as to be a powerful tool indeed for building faith. If not properly written or properly taught, it may be a faith destroyer…
"There is a temptation for the writer or the teacher of Church history to want to tell everything, whether it is worthy or faith promoting or not. Some things that are true are not very useful… "
- Boyd K Packer at BYU.
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Did you "Pray" for a "blessing" and get one?
by LoisLane looking for Superman inwhat about all the other 1,001 times you prayed for an intervention/blessing, and didn't get it?
did you think you were "bad" or just figure god was too busy to bother with you?.
just lois.
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Qcmbr
If Christian prayer worked then medical/financial/political/social/sporting miracles would abound and US hospitals would be empty places, nobody would be poor, everyone would eat well and you could tell the level of someone's faith simply by the health and wealth of said individual. The obvious truth is that prayer may have mild meditation benefits and better personal planning effects but it has absolutely zero material impact on the world because there is no spiritual, invisible world ,accessible by telepathy, controlling the real world and just itching to jump in and muck up physics by miracles.
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62
Enemies Of Reason -Richard Dawkins
by frankiespeakin inhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vcs751gcp10.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=52j5stxkbkq.
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Qcmbr
All religions, when they start, are open to the current knowledge of the time and can claim to embrace it because they build in the latest ideas available. Each year thereafter they struggle to defend their position as people discover new things. As we experiment we discover new truths and we discard old modpels for better ones.There is no shame or loss of confidence because reason drives the actual search for knowledge. Faith on the other hand, requires a fixed view despite subsequent evidence otherwise the final reward is at risk.Mormonism once claimed to embrace all truth, including scientific, because once it had nothing to fear from them, now it is running scared. We have incontrovertable dna proof that Israelites were not the "principal" ancestors of the American Indians, we have proof that the facsimiles used in the Book of Abraham are standard funery texts containing none of the supposed revelations, we have incontrovertable proof that there has been no global flood, no time of paradisical immortality for all life, we have proof that no huge undiscovered societies once lived in the Americas ( the same way we can say with certainty that Scotland was not once a bustling Ming dynasty province), we have proof that the prophets have no discernment (Hoffman forgeries) and we have proof of how stars produce light. mormonism is scrabbling to keep itself current and will unravel as its past catches up to it.
As for offering private PM discussions on this board I suspect you have played your hand and revealed that you are in missionary mode and looking for converts. This board helped me to exit the church based upon seeing how similar core ideas were and how processes for control were shared. I invite you to, in public, in a specific thread , see if your testimony and truths can withstand honest and sustained reason and facts. Should you come out having put all 'enemies of truth' to the sword you would have done us all a favour otherwise , together, we would have shown , for all to see and benefit thereby, that Mormonism is not where seekers of a new faith post JW exit should look.