Posts by Qcmbr

73

Bitter apostates

by Laika in

witnesses often go on about apostates being spiteful and bitter.

when you get cut off, shunned, or threatened with shunning just for the audacity of thinking differently, it's not surprising that getting angry at the witnesses is the reaction - it's like a self fulfilling prophecy.. but also, i recently posted an email from a 'friend' on this board who told me that everyone he'd spoken to about me said i had changed, become like another person.

it didn't occur to him that the day before i told my parents i'd quit the religion just 3 weeks ago, i met him for lunch, we had a good time and he didn't know anything was up.

Qcmbr

Green Eggs and Ham is written with numerous chiastic forms.

Once you get a handle on what treasure digging was it all makes sense. http://www.dialoguejournal.com/wp-content/uploads/sbi/articles/Dialogue_V36N04_37.pdf (sorry iPad - hard to make clickable links)

The above article , using fully referenced sources, shows how treasure diggers ,in America , in that region and specifically the Smith family were often looking for Captain Kidd's buried treasure. The stories of Kidd that they were steeped in ( it is reported as a favourite of Joseph as a child) contains references to Comoros and Moroni.

The Book of Mormon is available online at lds.org. Anyone looking to see changing lds thought and the historical issues would also do well to look at mormonthink.com as well which is very approachable.

73

Bitter apostates

by Laika in

witnesses often go on about apostates being spiteful and bitter.

when you get cut off, shunned, or threatened with shunning just for the audacity of thinking differently, it's not surprising that getting angry at the witnesses is the reaction - it's like a self fulfilling prophecy.. but also, i recently posted an email from a 'friend' on this board who told me that everyone he'd spoken to about me said i had changed, become like another person.

it didn't occur to him that the day before i told my parents i'd quit the religion just 3 weeks ago, i met him for lunch, we had a good time and he didn't know anything was up.

Qcmbr

When you are within a worldview your ability to deconstruct that worldview is severely hampered. You are impressed by things like 8 mormon witnesses because they support your worldview but you will subconsciously dismiss any number of witnesses for events that disagree with your internalised truth. This way of thinking is how our brains work. Once we are emotionally invested we introduce staggering bias to our perception filters. Right now you literally cannot perceive the correct weight of the evidence against Mormonism. It is a similar problem to those trying to argue against evolution to preserve a creationist mythology.

Let me give you a neat little example in reference to something you frequently allude to - this Nahom. To you the presence of somewhere that has a similar name on the Arabian peninsula becomes resounding proof. The presence of a place called Comoros , east of Mozambique, with a capital of Moroni however , won't even raise a flicker of concern. As an observer it looks very much like someone choosing exotic names, slightly modifying them and then writing them. Modern day apologists then produce a straw man argument that nowhere on the coast of The Arabian peninsula would ever be expected to have a long standing river, trees for boats and ore for tools and when they find one that also shares the same letters as one of the many made up names used in the fictional account claim it is incredible proof. This is craziness. The whole story fails a basic reality check: we are ascribing ocean going boat building skills to a tiny family of farming based migrants ( if you have any experience in boat building you will know how many people and how much specialist material is needed to make a vessel , never mind one capable of crossing multiple oceans. It is well outside the resource availability, tool and skillets described in the BoM- the believers answer is always then to invoke magic. If you respond to this you will find yourself doing it!)

73

Bitter apostates

by Laika in

witnesses often go on about apostates being spiteful and bitter.

when you get cut off, shunned, or threatened with shunning just for the audacity of thinking differently, it's not surprising that getting angry at the witnesses is the reaction - it's like a self fulfilling prophecy.. but also, i recently posted an email from a 'friend' on this board who told me that everyone he'd spoken to about me said i had changed, become like another person.

it didn't occur to him that the day before i told my parents i'd quit the religion just 3 weeks ago, i met him for lunch, we had a good time and he didn't know anything was up.

Qcmbr

Cold - I feel we shall have to have this out on another thread, there are people reading this who may be swayed by your statments. Your committment is clear but you are willfully disregarding very basic and clear cut failure points that preclude Mormonism being other than a pious fraud. This weekend I shall endeavour to make a concise list of these for discussion.

The pedant in me must point out your comments on the Keys and note how your statement contains a contradiction regarding how many people have the keys.

Your notes on grammar seem odd in that you seem to ascribe much weight to the detail in the Book of Mormon at a minute level (the word 'is' , an error in the context cited, becomes ,for you, additional proof) but you completely miss the concept that the entire book betrays its construction by the constant, incorrect usage of old english forms - absolutely out of place in a translation - rendering entire sentences as contextual gibberish (a thread a while back jgnat posted an excellent deconstruction of the BoM from a linguistic POV.)

You cannot stand in judgment of those who post here, many of whom have escaped through great sacrifice, mental pain and cost a destructive cult when you yourself are part of a very elaborate, and effective cult that has robbed its people of 10% income per annum and is guilty of racism, sexism, torture, homophobia, murder, polygamy, polyandry, fraud, theft, secret practices and unfulfilled promises.

73

Bitter apostates

by Laika in

witnesses often go on about apostates being spiteful and bitter.

when you get cut off, shunned, or threatened with shunning just for the audacity of thinking differently, it's not surprising that getting angry at the witnesses is the reaction - it's like a self fulfilling prophecy.. but also, i recently posted an email from a 'friend' on this board who told me that everyone he'd spoken to about me said i had changed, become like another person.

it didn't occur to him that the day before i told my parents i'd quit the religion just 3 weeks ago, i met him for lunch, we had a good time and he didn't know anything was up.

Qcmbr

Cold - where you now stand I once stood, the reasoning you use echoes how I thought. It is a terrible waste of an intellect and this is the crime of faith. It makes fools of us all.

Religion is the description of a reality that exists only in the mind. Each imagined reality can be ranked on its regulatory cost, the arbitrary rules one must obey.

JWs impose much stricter intellectual rules than Mormons do which means JWs have less room to think in. A JW meeting is a simple learning by rote from a script process of indoctrination. JWs make some silly claims that science and history do not validate (1914, 6000 year earth etc,) but they don't make many so the cog dis shelf consists of mainly practical situations caused by the rules ( shunning, blood ban etc.) This is the strength and the weakness of the JW religion.

Mormonism is a different take on faith. Intellectually there is more latitude to think and speculate. The day to day rules are currently very positive and endearing. A Mormon meeting is a much more free wheeling affair with members making up their own presentation on a topic. Mormons make multiple silly claims that science and history do not validate ( Israelites in America, healing by Priesthood, ancient books translated etc.) but their day to day rules are generally pro society ( unless you are gay or an independent woman and formerly if you were black) so the cog dis shelf consists mainly of many historical issues (polygamy, Kirtland Bank, racism, Danites, Mountain Meadows etc.) This is the strength and weakness of the Mormon.

12

Scriptural list of gods anger?

by iCeltic in

can anyone point me in the right direction, a good descriptive list of gods anger, genocide, vengeance and general things that we would view as bad and the scriptures next to it to show where these things are in the bible?.

Qcmbr

Flood

259

Prayers that God answers. Any examples?

by punkofnice in

when i believed in god i tried not to pray for anything selfish.. after a while i began to think that a lot of things i was asking my imaginary friend in the sky for were selfish for some reason.. i do not ever remember a single thing i prayed for ever being answered.

if there was the appearance of an answer it was because i did mental gymnastics to make it fit the delusion that god had actually answered me.

there was never an obvious message/answer from god.

Qcmbr

I prayed fairly consistently to know the truth about god. I got an answer. It wasn't what I hoped for. In hindsight it was the only prayers that ever had actual real, useful answers. Thanks brain.

30

When Is Armageddon? Really?

by Cold Steel in

yeah, i know that it's been just around the corner for as long as there have been corners, but my question adds just a little different twist, and that twist is: is there anything (according to the gb) that needs to take place before armageddon?

or can it happen any moment?

and what will be the first signs of armageddon?

Qcmbr

Mormons do the same. For years we've been scared into buying useless food items ( in my case it was a 200 kg wheat) because (initially) the second coming was just around the corner. The high point of mormonism's growth was the late 70s when the fear of a nuclear war was very deeply embedded and everyone knew that was how it was going to end. With the state of the world it seemed like we lurched from one crisis to another and everyone seemed to be counting down the clock. I can't remember whether it was Nibley or Skousen ( I suspect Skousen) produced an unofficial talk stating that the second coming, using known dates and events mingled with scripture, had to occur in or before 1992 (I think) and we lapped it up. This was the final chapter, the clock was a minute to midnight, we were the special generation that would cause the heavens to hush in awe and admiration. As that fear and expectation has passed the church has slowly downplayed end times thinking ( at a huge cost to its motive power!) and is investing for the long haul.

No one spends 3 billion on a shopping centre if they think the end is tomorrow. Even if the average Mormon doesn't accept it yet the management know there is no Armageddon that they are aware of and have shifted their sales pitch from the imminent second coming to happy families.

Any believing Mormon should only need to worry when SLC starts building bomb shelters.

63

Sparlock is helping Mormons

by cedars in

check out this awesome video - part 7 in a series where a mormon uses the witnesses as a proxy to figure out why his own faith is wrong.. sparlock, hassan's bite model, and even the 2013 "human apostates" convention talk all make cameos.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmesmlhydru.

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cedars.

Qcmbr

Not certain whether you're taking up the challenge or not Cold! We could go to another board to discuss this but that wasn't what I was aiming at (I think we both know where we stand relative to each other, a discussion regarding the validity of prophecy I suspect has been done to death on those boards and the tone I would probably use would end up with me getting chucked off quite rapidly,a bit like eating a Big Mac in Hindu temple.) I was looking more to explore what constitutes prophecy, how little information is actually given and how it is often surrounded by odd things.

I have to work in a sec. so this is just a quick indicator of what I mean:

History of the Church (vol. 1, pg.301). Joseph wrote, "The people of South Carolina, in convention assembled (in November), passed ordinances, declaring their state a free and independent nation...President Jackson issued his proclamation against this rebellion, called out a force sufficient to quell it, and implored the blessings of God to assist the nation to extricate itself from the horrors of the approaching and solemn crisis."

Since the 'revelation' in D&C 87 was given a month later it takes on a different tone (verse 1 refers to the already passed rebellion not the future start of the Civil War)

Verse 2 suggests that war would be poured out on all nations starting from this rebellion but in reality neither World Wars were linked to the American Civil War. In fact , if you look at the following info it is posible to see how wars have been pretty consistent across the period. What the US Civil War did do however, was introduce serious trench warfare and the wholesale industrialisation of the process.

http://timelineindex.com/content/select/1311/912,1385,1311?pageNum_rsSite=5&totalRows_rsSite=127

http://timelineindex.com/content/select/1311/912,1385,1311?pageNum_rsSite=6&totalRows_rsSite=127

http://timelineindex.com/content/select/1311/912,1385,1311?pageNum_rsSite=7&totalRows_rsSite=127

http://www.salon.com/2013/04/23/the_world_is_actually_safer_than_ever/

That in the event of conflict the South would call on Great Britain is a given considering the cotton trade but Great Britain didn't join the war and therefore didn't call on other nations (its very vague to say that at some time in the future in some war GB would call for help!)

No Israelite remnant rose up to vex the Gentiles unless we are now linking this prophecy to the Middle East (!?)

No consumption of all nations has occurred.

There was no point in standing in Holy places since no second coming happened.

So in total the main hit had already happened (it just looks like its referring to a future event) and everything thereafter is either common knowledge or too vague to be applied.

63

Sparlock is helping Mormons

by cedars in

check out this awesome video - part 7 in a series where a mormon uses the witnesses as a proxy to figure out why his own faith is wrong.. sparlock, hassan's bite model, and even the 2013 "human apostates" convention talk all make cameos.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmesmlhydru.

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cedars.

Qcmbr

Shrugs, this was a good chance to put forward some info Cold - surprised you don't want to take it.

As a quick summary to my thoughts on JS and his prophecy I think we apply the tag of 'prophecy' (in most cases) after an event has occurred that can be interpreted as having matched the main elements of some statement. This is similar to the way people will respond to cold reading; finding hits while ignoring the misses. At first reading the JS prophecy on the civil war (I think this one we can call prophecy as it is published in LDS scripture as a revelation from God) is very impressive, especially as it is then backed up by further prophecy preceding the event. Like cold reading however, the main hit overrides the failing details that then need interpretation to explain. Furthermore JS also had several statements that never achieved the tag of 'prophecy' because they never happened but if they had they would surely have been elevated as such.

63

Sparlock is helping Mormons

by cedars in

check out this awesome video - part 7 in a series where a mormon uses the witnesses as a proxy to figure out why his own faith is wrong.. sparlock, hassan's bite model, and even the 2013 "human apostates" convention talk all make cameos.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmesmlhydru.

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cedars.

Qcmbr

Cold Steel - this probably isn't the thread to do this. If you'd like to discuss it and you think you have a strong case lets take each of the prophecies / miracles , one at a time, you present the evidence you have and I'll present what I found. Sound like a plan? Would be more than happy to start with the prophecy on the civil war. I will allow you to start the threads.