Here's an on topic idea to discuss:
As evidenced by this thread, faith leads to very sophisticated metaphysical arguments to support or explain situations the secular world judges simply immoral.
Posts by Qcmbr
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340Fallacies about Faith
by tec inpeace to you!.
this thread is about false things (some) atheists think theists believe.
this is not a thread about false things that atheists think about theists.
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139
Ever consider joining The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?
by rawe inhas anyone here left jehovah's witnesses to join the churuch of jesus christ of latter-day saints?
what was your motivation for doing so and how has it worked out?.
if you haven't joined the lds or considered it, as an ex-jw, what is your general view of the lds faith?.
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Qcmbr
Cold - what information have you considered that is not supportive of Mormonism?
No matter how impressive you think Mormon scholarly efforts are you must , if you think long and hard about it, wonder why non Mormon scholars disagree completely with ancient history of America as described by Joseph and his non Mormon contempories. Where Mormon scholars talk about real things ( like the dead sea scrolls) there is a vast agreement and support from all other educational bodies. To a believing Mormon this discrepancy can only be squared by imagining a vast , coordinated, secular conspiracy to discredit Mormonism by suppressing truth. Common sense tells us that the reason such organisations as the Smithsonian don't agree to Jaredite,Nephite and Lamanite existence is for far simpler and more honest reasons - no evidence whatsoever, no buildings, no remains, no records and no artefacts.
- Joseph has sex with his adopted daughter (16 years old)
- Joseph has sex with married women
- Joseph drinks alcohol, owns businesses involved in alcohol production and sale all after his factually incorrect Word of Wisdom revelation
- Joseph makes up tall tales regularly ( for example claiming a stone structure was actually Adam's altar but forgetting what a flood would do)
- Joseph caught pretending to translate ( kinder hook, Greek psalter and in our day Book of Abraham)
- Joseph writes a book full of copy errors , factual mistakes and impossibilities - in the style of a pious schoolbook from his youth - and then tries to sell it
- Joseph tells people of supernatural occurrences many years after and gets his salient facts wrong many times ( confusing Nephi with Moroni, giving different divine responses to different questions to different people in the same 'First Vision')
There has to be a point where you recognise a charismatic con man when you see him.
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340
Fallacies about Faith
by tec inpeace to you!.
this thread is about false things (some) atheists think theists believe.
this is not a thread about false things that atheists think about theists.
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Qcmbr
Joshua 7:10-15 - human sacrifice
10 The Lord said to Joshua, “Stand up! What are you doing down on your face? 11 Israel has sinned; they have violated my covenant, which I commanded them to keep. They have taken some of the devoted things; they have stolen, they have lied, they have put them with their own possessions. 12 That is why the Israelites cannot stand against their enemies; they turn their backs and run because they have been made liable to destruction. I will not be with you anymore unless you destroy whatever among you is devoted to destruction.
13 “Go, consecrate the people. Tell them, ‘Consecrate yourselves in preparation for tomorrow; for this is what the Lord , the God of Israel, says: There are devoted things among you, Israel. You cannot stand against your enemies until you remove them.
14 “‘In the morning, present yourselves tribe by tribe. The tribe the Lord chooses shall come forward clan by clan; the clan the Lord chooses shall come forward family by family; and the family the Lord chooses shall come forward man by man. 15 Whoever is caught with the devoted things shall be destroyed by fire, along with all that belongs to him. He has violated the covenant of the Lord and has done an outrageous thing in Israel!’”
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340
Fallacies about Faith
by tec inpeace to you!.
this thread is about false things (some) atheists think theists believe.
this is not a thread about false things that atheists think about theists.
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Qcmbr
...and we haven't even started on the flood where everyone save 8 died. That was not the fault of any human - it was an entirely supernatural event from start to finish. OT god loved to kill and was very good at it. He even got pissy when you try to stop his holy killing machine, teh Ark of teh Covenant, from falling onto the ground.
He seems quite excited and prepared for the grand bloodletting at the end as well.When will this god get satisfied by all the millions of humans he sacrifices for his divine purposes?
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340
Fallacies about Faith
by tec inpeace to you!.
this thread is about false things (some) atheists think theists believe.
this is not a thread about false things that atheists think about theists.
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Qcmbr
Most of us can see what the story says, that you can't and are defending it is tragic. The OT record is replete with God murdering people, instituting blood sacrifices (animals mainly but at a pinch he was happy to take down opposing priests or cities), initiating genocides, inspiring blood obsessed scriptures and so on. The supposed culmination of all this blood letting was the human sacrifice of Jesus. Your god is evil. Your morals on this issue are flawed.
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340
Fallacies about Faith
by tec inpeace to you!.
this thread is about false things (some) atheists think theists believe.
this is not a thread about false things that atheists think about theists.
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Qcmbr
You don't find it disgusting that God would ask once. You don't find it disgusting that God would allow and accept a later sacrifice he could have stopped (really - how hard would it have been to get a goat to come out first?)
Finally - you don't find it disgusting that the supposed price for your sins is a human sacrifice?
Please never wonder why your moral standards on this matter are rejected out of hand (by me at least).
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340
Fallacies about Faith
by tec inpeace to you!.
this thread is about false things (some) atheists think theists believe.
this is not a thread about false things that atheists think about theists.
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Qcmbr
So what do you understand by Then the Spirit of the Lord came on Jephthah?
Did God bother to stop him? Did God allow the sacrifice to complete - in His name?
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340
Fallacies about Faith
by tec inpeace to you!.
this thread is about false things (some) atheists think theists believe.
this is not a thread about false things that atheists think about theists.
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Qcmbr
Name another example after Abraham's test of faith
Wasn't once enough? What being would even suggest such a disgusting concept even under the pretence of a test?
but since you ask:
Judges 11:29-40
New International Version (NIV)
29 Then the Spirit of the Lord came on Jephthah. He crossed Gilead and Manasseh, passed through Mizpah of Gilead, and from there he advanced against the Ammonites. 30 And Jephthah made a vow to the Lord : “If you give the Ammonites into my hands, 31 whatever comes out of the door of my house to meet me when I return in triumph from the Ammonites will be the Lord ’s, and I will sacrifice it as a burnt offering.”
32 Then Jephthah went over to fight the Ammonites, and the Lord gave them into his hands. 33 He devastated twenty towns from Aroer to the vicinity of Minnith, as far as Abel Keramim. Thus Israel subdued Ammon.
34 When Jephthah returned to his home in Mizpah, who should come out to meet him but his daughter, dancing to the sound of timbrels! She was an only child. Except for her he had neither son nor daughter. 35 When he saw her, he tore his clothes and cried, “Oh no, my daughter! You have brought me down and I am devastated. I have made a vow to the Lord that I cannot break.”
36 “My father,” she replied, “you have given your word to the Lord . Do to me just as you promised, now that the Lord has avenged you of your enemies, the Ammonites. 37 But grant me this one request,” she said. “Give me two months to roam the hills and weep with my friends, because I will never marry.”
38 “You may go,” he said. And he let her go for two months. She and her friends went into the hills and wept because she would never marry. 39 After the two months, she returned to her father, and he did to her as he had vowed. And she was a virgin.
From this comes the Israelite tradition 40 that each year the young women of Israel go out for four days to commemorate the daughter of Jephthah the Gileadite.
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340
Fallacies about Faith
by tec inpeace to you!.
this thread is about false things (some) atheists think theists believe.
this is not a thread about false things that atheists think about theists.
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Qcmbr
There should come a point where we put aside childish fantasies about gods turning people into salt and raining fire down on evil cities. This is not reality, it never happened, it was ancient Harry Potter. We make fools of ourselves to argue for the veracity of tribal fables.
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Qcmbr
Yes - I do immensely respect someone who believes, allows that belief to enrich their life but is acutely aware that it is simply a belief. There is something inspiring in standing for something when you know you don't have a full picture or you are faced with the uncertainty of the outcome. The believers who slip into certainty mode or who turn their lack of knowledge into a more certain belief (doubling down when their belief is shown to be empty) are where I start to despair at faith. Someone willing to stand up without full information and put forward an idea is exciting IF they are self aware enough to doubt and brave enough to modify their idea when presented with new info.
Not particularly directed only at BAs!