The Mormon church is lurching from PR disaster to PR disaster. It is making itself relevant not by meeting the needs of widows and the needy but by accidentaly standing in the spotlight while wielding an ugly anti equality whip. Proposition 8 reminded everyone its anti - gay (no matter how its spun) and now they are seen to be anti freedom of expression and thought with an underlying smear of patriarchal ugliness. This will break many more shelves before it's finished.
Posts by Qcmbr
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23Mormon woman, Kate Kelly, about to be excommunicated
by designs inthe mormon leaders in virginia are deciding whether to excommunicate kate kelly for pushing for equal rights for mormon women in the church.
she wants to remain a mormon whatever the outcome of the hearing.. 800-1000 mormons held a vigil in support of kate.. the group ordain women, mormons who want change in their church structure, are active in 17 countries pushing the male dominated leaders to make this important change.. kate kelly is herself an international human rights lawyer.. church leaders site jesus only choosing men in leadership positions as their foundational support.. those interviewed at the vigil said they want an atmosphere where they can at least have conversations openly about changes they would like to see made in the church..
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Atheism is a Belief System
by seekchristonly inis atheism a belief system.
after all the atheist believes there is no god .so if that's the case then an atheist if a person of faith.
they have faith in the fact there is no god.
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Qcmbr
Words have meaning because they describe difference. If everything was 'red' there would be no word for 'red' as its meaning is derived by being able to say 'not green or yellow or blue...' To simply equate all possible thinking states as beliefs we negate the need for the word however we recognise linguistically that there are states of disbelief. Disbelief is not a subset of belief it is its opposite. Atheism isnt a belief in no gods. It is to be without theism. What I have mentioned before and what some people are straining to prove is that some atheists believe in anti-theism or are opposed to theism. Hitchens wrote one of his books on this. Most atheists I have met believe in humanism in one form or another so if you wish to talk about belief or belief systems that could be a fruitful avenue of discussion rather than trying to argue that my(others) lack of Ganesh statues and a rejection of the literalness Odin is an an example of believing in something.
The motivation to define atheism as a faith based belief (a refinement of belief indicating that it is not supported by observed evidence and for the religious is seen as a virtue and mark of committment) can only, I suppose, come from a recognition that faith is an inherantly unsupportable position and is always at risk from new experience. If positions that are anti-theist OR threatening to faith can be shown to suffer this same fundamental weakness , faith, then presumably they can be dismissed. Ironically fundamentalists often present great examples of critical skepticism but they only ever apply it to threats. They have the skill but not the wisdom to use it fairly.
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What would be a scientific description/explanation of what God is?
by EndofMysteries inbased upon descriptions in the bible and what is known scientifically so far, what would god actually be?
lightning comes out of the throne.
no man may see and live.
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Qcmbr
God is a story to explain that which we experience but do not understand. It has been told through all recorded history and has become part of clan culture. The things we do not understand (until we research) range from physical phenomenom such as lightning through to biochemical such as elation and love. Since some knowledge is violently uncomfortable and difficult to research (what happens when we die?) there is ample motivation for stories to continue and multiply.
In a more reductionist fashion we can also describe God as 'that which is more powerful than us.' We have historically elevated people to that status.
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Atheism is a Belief System
by seekchristonly inis atheism a belief system.
after all the atheist believes there is no god .so if that's the case then an atheist if a person of faith.
they have faith in the fact there is no god.
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Qcmbr
To have faith you must believe in something our trolling christians seem to want to argue that absolute nothing can exist (despite the latest evidence) and that Atheism is the state of believing in it.
Cofty you fight the good fight. Trolling christians is it foolish to deflect information and knowledge in pursuit of word games? Your intelligence is not increased by redefining atheism or in speculating about physics using the bible and googled book reviews.
Atheism - to be without theism (a state not a belief)
Anti-theism - to be opposed to theism ( a belief that theism is detrimental.)
If you can't resolve the argument in 5 minutes using data you are discussing religion, if you don't have enough data stop arguing and go get it - paraphrased quote from the Clean Coder.
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A Mormon becomes a JW in the Feb 2013 Watchtower...
by cedars inglancing through the feb 2013 "public" watchtower edition, an interesting article appears on page 8.. here is the pdf download link.... http://www.jw.org/download/?fileformat=pdf&issue=20130201&output=html&pub=wp&langwritten=e&option=trgchlzrqvnyvrxf&txtcmslang=e.
it's interesting how, in the story, the young man's jw aunt and uncle switch him from mormonism to the jw faith using third-party material (the nov 8, 1995 awake!
article), and he ends up becoming a jw after confirming on the official mormon website that the claims in the awake!
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Qcmbr
I haven't seen the film you mention so I cant comment on that. I have known several members in good standing who were homosexual and who held church callings and attended the temple. Mormons, in the UK, approach things in a don't ask manner however, since all members are under the same 'law of chastity'(basically no non married sex)this poses a unique challenge. Mormons of course do not accept gay marriage. This denial of the right to marry out of desire has been the storm that has sent many lds gay men into depression, suicide and misguided straight marriages. At its most extreme the church sponsored some pretty immoral aversion therapies as well. Now, pressured by secular society and from the liberal members within it is repackaging its gay offering but it is still underpinned by a 'love the sinner hate the sin' ethos. The church is making huge media steps and baby equality steps with regards homosexuality. I suspect we will need the old hardliners to die before we see meaningful change but the groundwork is starting.
With regards to shunning it is not too formal (unless you are a vocal apostate) and in many ways the attempt to reclaim 'lost sheep' wouldnt work if shunning was encouraged. In effect some members may unofficially shun and family members are still capable of crazy things so you will always find horror stories.
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A Mormon becomes a JW in the Feb 2013 Watchtower...
by cedars inglancing through the feb 2013 "public" watchtower edition, an interesting article appears on page 8.. here is the pdf download link.... http://www.jw.org/download/?fileformat=pdf&issue=20130201&output=html&pub=wp&langwritten=e&option=trgchlzrqvnyvrxf&txtcmslang=e.
it's interesting how, in the story, the young man's jw aunt and uncle switch him from mormonism to the jw faith using third-party material (the nov 8, 1995 awake!
article), and he ends up becoming a jw after confirming on the official mormon website that the claims in the awake!
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Qcmbr
Cold Steel - non of the people leaving cite the US as any part of the decision. People are leaving because the church lied about certain key historical things, it obfuscated important contextual facts, it changed doctrine and ritual that it claimed was unchangeable, it failed every scientific challenge, it has been unable to replicate the supposed miracles of Jesus and perhaps the most telling of all - it has proven time and again that wealth and money are its unspoken aim. Your (!) Church has spent more money by several orders of magnitude on setting up businesses than it ever has on charitable works.
By their fruits....
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What Do Mormons Really Believe? RE: The Nov. 8, 1995 Awake Magazine
by D_Rolling_Kearney ini am a member of the church of jesus christ of latter-day saints, and i have written a heavily-documented response to the official magazine of the jehovah's witnesses, awake!, that claims to teach what we believe.
i saw an article from last year's watchtower about a guy who had barely been mormon for very long, and obviously did not know what we believe, who was given this magazine by jw's to show him "the truth.
" he claims to have proven to himself that it was true from information on the lds church's website.
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Qcmbr
Mormonism is , like all Abrahamic religions, patriarchal. Unlike other religions Mormonism reinforces the male dominance by redefining god as an exalted man married to one or more exalted but scripturally silent women. The Priesthood , the authority to act for and on behalf of god and expressed by ritual, has settled into a male preserve ( though the early church - meaning its members - experimented with female Priesthood expression vestiges of which are preserved in the temple wording and ritual.) All religion is written in gobbleydegook (e.g. Nicene creed!) and mormon pamphlets are no exception. What you read is the result of a very careful 'correlated' message which presents 'milk before meat'. It is impossible to make a rational evaluation of Mormonism via its published proselyting material. This is acknowledged and encouraged by the church which insists that conversion is a spiritual (I.e. emotional) experience not requiring all the facts.
The missionaries are breaking mission rules if they visit a single lady and are male and vice versa without a chaperone. Missionary work is no different to any other high pressure sale scenario. Those missionaries have a quota, they are certain you need their product and they will use every means their 19 year old morality will stretch to to make the sale. They are as emotionally and psychologically trapped as they hope you will be and by and large they love what they are doing.
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What Do Mormons Really Believe? RE: The Nov. 8, 1995 Awake Magazine
by D_Rolling_Kearney ini am a member of the church of jesus christ of latter-day saints, and i have written a heavily-documented response to the official magazine of the jehovah's witnesses, awake!, that claims to teach what we believe.
i saw an article from last year's watchtower about a guy who had barely been mormon for very long, and obviously did not know what we believe, who was given this magazine by jw's to show him "the truth.
" he claims to have proven to himself that it was true from information on the lds church's website.
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Qcmbr
If you look at both religions in a doctrinal way then it's obvious that they have many differences (just as all denominations have) and if the agenda is to create clear water to justify why one is superior than the other in this or that then it can be presented as such. The opposite is also true, we can find common themes, ideas and techniques that both share - when Mormon missionaries are proselyting they are trained to build upon 'common beliefs'. In shared experience is understanding forged. I will forever be in debt to the people on this board for opening my eyes to the common experiences, for deconstructing the 'them' and 'us' mentality that religion requires and fosters. When a JW doubts they must confront the same fears and questions that a Mormon (or any religionist) does. All people are afraid to lose family and/or friends,worry they are wrong and have angered the heavens, find it emotionally exhausting to fight against a culture they are embedded in and all have to come to terms with redefining who they are when for so long they allowed others to do that for them.
When I was doubting it was watching others doubt that gave me the courage to reject a god who had taken over my every waking thought. Those of us who made it out the other side are now survivors with joint stories trying our best to help those still caught in the mental and physical nets of religion. It doesnt matter who the slave owner was or what make of leg irons they used - slavery still tastes the same.
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UK Television viewers please.
by quellycatface inhave any of you ever watched the tv programme "derek" on channel 4?.
it is quite amazingly good.
funny, sad and poignant all at the same time.. my 14yr old son got me watching it.. .
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Qcmbr
Yes one of my favourite series. Makes my eyes leaky.
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A Mormon becomes a JW in the Feb 2013 Watchtower...
by cedars inglancing through the feb 2013 "public" watchtower edition, an interesting article appears on page 8.. here is the pdf download link.... http://www.jw.org/download/?fileformat=pdf&issue=20130201&output=html&pub=wp&langwritten=e&option=trgchlzrqvnyvrxf&txtcmslang=e.
it's interesting how, in the story, the young man's jw aunt and uncle switch him from mormonism to the jw faith using third-party material (the nov 8, 1995 awake!
article), and he ends up becoming a jw after confirming on the official mormon website that the claims in the awake!
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Qcmbr
D rolling I am a mormon (yes they still havent processed my resignation). I am in contact with many ex-mormons and many leaving but active members. If you insist on claiming im lying I will post the stuff both you and cold steel do not want to hear. The lds church is being decimated in the uk (since I last posted on this subject I have had a couple leave and their son come and borrow borrow Quinn's book on magic in the early church. I have had 2 other members express doubts about the 'truth' but saying that the church is still good and another internet contact say she's had to change her stance though she still has a testimony of god. The church cannot suffer this level of disaffection as it doesnt baptise enough. In the time my local church has lost 25 core members it has baptised 3 and retained 2. The branch up the road has had 3 core members leave in the last year.of those who left and I have talked -about 15 - 10 said they left because of specific historical things , 2 said they left to live life and 3 didnt agree with current doctrine regarding homosexuality.
Do the research, man up and face the facts. The church we both love and gave our souls to is not the truth. It hurts like hell but dressing up like a baker in a huge fancy building learning masonic symbols is rank silliness. Endless meetings, empty prayers, pretending to heal while knowing a real miracle would make national news, reading stories about huge civilisations for whom there is no evidence and plenty of counter evidence, giving money to a corporation who donate about 1% to actual good works and pay the top leaders vast amounts and studying material that is regularly disproved by science - this is the life we try to pretend is the truth. As someone who is not your enemy I beg you to let go the emotion and start asking the real, tough questions.