Ok - clearing up after you lds mate!!!!
1/At no stage did JS say that all American Indians were white. In fact the Book Of Mormon clearly indicates that the inhabitants of the Americas were asiatic and that two additional influxes of people are recorded - each group was tiny and so in no way was there any major impact on the local gene pool however they did grow to great influence under the Aztec and Mayan model of central kingship and servant cities.
2/A urim and thummim were used to translate the Book of Mormon because that's what constitutes the ability to be a seer. They were after the model of the U/T of Moses but were not the same. How else was he supposed to translate the record??
3/The Garden of Eden in JC isn't such a stretch if you also believe that the continents where all in one place and broke up after the flood.
4/The seerstone and the hat - there are so many crazy stories flying around about this and there is no clear evidence that he ever used one - just anecdotal stories - you know prophet claims visions/ miracles / discovery of ancient record - it becomes open season for the gossips. Even if he did - a hat seems a sensible place to put something that needs to be in the dark to be seen - I guess he could have hidden under the bedcovers or a put a blanket over his head - either way you get a funny story.
The problem with some christian attitudes is that they are willing to read the OT with Ark of Covenant / Temple rituals / Urim and Thummim / Fire from Heaven / Flood / Creation / Prophets etc... but are only actually willing to confess a Jesus who healed and preached sermons and died / rose again. A modern day prophet with the experiences of the OT and the testimony of the NT is treated as a source of ridicule. This is the time when aethiests and agnostics have a better arguement because at least they reject / doubt the whole kit and kaboodle rather than being selective in what fits comfortably about the god we've made in our image. Modern day christianity doesn't really like Moses they much prefer Paul.
Posts by Qcmbr
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24The Morman's and Joseph Smiths hat!!! OMG!
by free2beme inokay, it has been years since i cared about what a mormon does or says.
so to even question their beliefs and wonder what they mean, has been no interest to me.
yet when i am watching something that should not even be about religion and they mention something that makes me wonder, i have to ask.
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Qcmbr
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28
Whats your input to the explanation of 2 Cor. 12:2-4
by skyman in2 corinthians 12:2-4 (king james version) .
2i knew a man in christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, i cannot tell; or whether out of the body, i cannot tell: god knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
3and i knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, i cannot tell: god knoweth;) .
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Qcmbr
Apologies - Joseph Smith taught that Paul was referring to himself! Its hard to try and keep to a fairly neutral biblical interpretation.
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11
baptism ? to make one think?
by carla inif you could ask someone who is about to be baptized a question to make him think, what would you ask?
thanks, carla
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Qcmbr
By what authority were you baptised.
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Whats your input to the explanation of 2 Cor. 12:2-4
by skyman in2 corinthians 12:2-4 (king james version) .
2i knew a man in christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, i cannot tell; or whether out of the body, i cannot tell: god knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
3and i knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, i cannot tell: god knoweth;) .
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Qcmbr
Paul was talking about himself and referring to the prophetic experience of having a vision.
There are three heavens in LDS thinking but its not likely that this is what he was alluding to (or maybe it was) but a prophet cannot see God without being transfigured and in all liklehood removed from an imperfect body (which could not withstand the experience - actually one major reason why God doesn't show himself en masse or to loads of people - He can't)
Most visions involving God or the now glorified Jesus would need to involve being somewhere else and out of the body - in this case whatever that third heaven was.IMHO. -
22
Mothers Doubts: Latest Update
by diamondblue1974 infurther to my previous thread i thought i would share an update with you on the situation with my mother... .
essentially my mother has been a jw for 30 years and we had a long conversation which involved me running through my reasons for no longer going to the meetings; she seemed quite receptive and agreed for me to send the documents and articles relating to the un.
well that very evening she went to see her elders without actually seeing the documents and asked about the un saga....apparently the elder told her that 'this was all sorted out ages ago and yes this has come from the apostates' 'the society has never been a member of the un and that this just a hoax designed to stumble people....' hmmn.
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Qcmbr
I'd ask your mum for the name of the elder who she talked to. I'd record him saying the lies as you present the info to him I would then approach a national newspaper with the story including the transcripts and the proof and that way hopefully you mum will be confronted with teh truth, loads of JWs will be confronted with the truth and that lying elder will get his butt tanned. While your at it you could place the theocratic warfare idea as a possible reason for his deception - theocratic warfare practised against JWs.
I wouldn't let him win - I know many are saying it would be better to let sleeping dogs lie but this elder has put down the guantlet. There is a principle at stake here - it is completely unacceptable to lie to your mum - especially as the end result is a distance between you at the end of her life. -
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"And war broke out in heaven" - Why and how?
by truthseeker ini don't know if anyone has brought up the subject of "the war in heaven" before, but i have a few questions.
maybe leolaia could help out with this one.
revelation 12 talks about a war in heaven - now this is not just any war.
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Qcmbr
I see the war in heaven as happening before Adam. A third of heaven didn't want to come to earth and try free will and potentially fail to achieve all they could. They preferred a plan that involved nobody failing by forcing everyone to obey and live a sinless life.
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How many of you want to be resurrected? (I am not judging here! Just a Q!)
by inquirer inthis is in no way meant to judge people, but sometimes i think about this issue a lot.
i think about famoust people and think "hmmm, will tom cruise be there in paradise?
arnold schartzenegger?
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Qcmbr
Hi Rod - just saying that suspending belief or disbelief about a resurrection I'd be worried if someone actually said that once they died then they didn't want to come back (ie suggests they aren't chuffed about life now.)
I totally agree though that the JW idea of God remembering someone and cloning them into existence doesn't fit with the idea of a unique conscious individual.
Just for the record the thing I can't understand is - if we are conscious spirits with an existence external to the body why do we sleep / go unconscious / go into a coma - how is it possible to block a conscious entities consciousness? Hmm I didn't explain that well. The silly thing is I think I can conceptualise what sleep feels like ergo I must be conscious at a low level during it - it feels like a warm fuzzy darkness - therefore death must be a step further than that for th enon believer orJW style believer - a nothingness that is unimaginable. -
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How many of you want to be resurrected? (I am not judging here! Just a Q!)
by inquirer inthis is in no way meant to judge people, but sometimes i think about this issue a lot.
i think about famoust people and think "hmmm, will tom cruise be there in paradise?
arnold schartzenegger?
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Qcmbr
I think everyone will get resurrected whether they want it or not.. of course I'd worry about someone just a little if they didn't want to be resurrected even if only as an intellectual exercise (because presumably they must not like living so much now.)
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What words and phrases do Brits and others see as 'American'?
by sonnyboy inas an american, i see words such as cheerio, blimey, bloody (when referring to something negative), loo, bugger, fag (cigarette), etc.
as chiefly british (i suppose they are).. what words and/or phrases do you consider to be chiefly american?
i'm honestly unaware of which words i use that may not be used in other english-speaking countries.
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Qcmbr
Utter disregard of context when using words:
US "That was totally awesome dude" - UK "That was Ok"
US "Let's levarage the situation" - UK "We could use that again"
US "I love you guys sooo much" - UK "See ya"
US "I'm going to the john" - UK "Ahh a shop doorway"
US "You douche bag" - UK "Git"
US "I'm so looking for the inner me" - UK "leave me alone"
US "Your car is so radical" - UK "Nice car"
etcetc
But anyhow "I love you yanks soo much":) -
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What Can You Tell Me About Scientology??
by minimus insince tom cruise has really pushed his "religion", i have to admit, i don't know much about it.
can you give some facts about it?
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Qcmbr
I read the dianetics book and I found some really useful stuff in the first three chapters - then it turned into a science fiction novel.
The movies Phenomenon and Battlefield earth have several strong scientology themes. In essence - if you strip out the money making and the religious aspects you are left with some really rather excellent self help material that wouldn't be out of place in any positive thinking manuals. They encourage confrontation and overcoming of emotional and psychological problems and aim to make tou ibto a fully realised person who reaches their potential which is very laudable. Thats all I can say good about them. After that they are McJedis - a science fiction corporation that will destroy you if you let it.