Posts by Qcmbr

6

Worlds Saddest Internet Argument Techniques

by Elsewhere in

jw
friends

http://www.cracked.com/funny-3809-internet-argument-techniques/.

how to combat these techniquesthe important thing to remember is that you are dealing with a person who has essentially placed a twig on their head and expects you to believe they are a tree.

armored in that level of "confidence," almost anything you say will be construed by them as evidence that their tree disguise is working, so you will have to be very specific and to the point in addressing exactly what they're doing and why it's not fooling anyone.. subtlety and sarcasm are great tools but there is no way in hell they will get through to this poor sap.

Qcmbr

Haha, guilty as charged !

544

FINALLY! Can you prove God exists? If you can I won't ask again!

by punkofnice in

i have seen debates and shizzle about god or not god etc etc.. i was even confronted by an aggressive and trheatening muslim in the street, who was angry that i wanted proof that god existed.

he ranted on a load of old b0110cks about 'hell' and stuff.

finally he yelled at me: 'do you want god to write your name in the sky?

Qcmbr

Every God that mankind has made up, and you have to admit we have a stunning knack for it based upon the vast numbers that litter the annals of history, is designed with one major purpose; each god acts as a placeholder for the unknown. Thor does thunder, Poseidan the seas, Yahweh does all the animals and so on. As we explore our world and our knowledge increases these gods slip into history their job done to be replaced by reason and knowledge. Gods only survive when no better explanation exists.

Jehovah has retreated , for most Christians, from the animal maker ( evolution ), the sun maker ( gravity ), the earth flooder ( hydrological cycle ) and the Eden planter (geology, archaeology, palentological and astronomy.) Each Christian may or may not be defined by a brand but under the hood they align into loose groupings of what God's supposed existence answers for them. We have the xian deists who , lacking accurate knowledge of how something can come from nothing default to a Westernised divinity rather than something like Taoism, there are after lifers who need to know that there is a reward for life's pain, there are supernaturalists who want non medical explanations for dreams, voices and visions, pattern matchers who see order in everything and see coincidence as too ineffectual for the sorting they perceive, egotists who need something all powerful to explain why they are right despite contradiction, ignoramuses who are too lazy or fearful to study and want a justifiying authority for their lack of knowledge, bombasts and evangelisers who feel driven to speak up and need an explanation for that drive and emotionalists who feel the powerful tug of intuition and romantic ideals and seek a better explanation for their passion than mere chemical interactions and genetics.

For many of these belief drivers there are perfectly good answers and just as the Thunder gods slipped from social prominence the gods of emotion , answered prayer, weather control, earthquake causation and miracles are disappearing. Gods still hold powerful sway where science hasn't found demonstrable mechanisms in nature but expect to see the cessation of the abiogenetic god, the voices in the head god , healing god and the revelatory god as science moves human understanding on. Expect to see more Xians moving to the deistic, experimental observation or all knowing , idea and comfort giving god away from the visceral, involved, physical god of the Hebrews and early Xians.

25

Mormon leaders reach out to gays, lesbian. I,am shocked!!

by jam in

mormon leaders made their most signifcant outreach.

yet to gays and lesbians, unveiling a new website thursday.

that encourages church members to be more compassionate.

Qcmbr

Hi Cold Steel,

I would agree, I am proceeding from the viewpoint that homosexuality is normal, by which I do not mean the majority but part of a spectrum of sexuality upon which we all exist.

It seems necessary to point out that pedophilia, bestiality and necrophilia all do not involve two consenting adults and secular society has matured to the point where we have provided laws to protect those with no voice. Homosexuality is nothing to do with this.

Lets look at the bible and think about what it talks about and who has interpreted it ( for example I'm fairly certain there is no specific word for homosexuality in the original authors languages so later translaters have added in what they think it says.) The bible authors' various cultures saw women as property and child marriage as the norm. Instructions for men to not lie with men as with women are more likely to refer to the selling of sex than a blanket ban on homosexual behaviour ( if you must apply your narrow definition then you at a sweep liberalise lesbian behaviour.) Sodom seems to portray a story where the men would be happy to rape anyone ( so bisexual), the biblical reference to men and women leaving their natural affections seems more apt as a condemnation of heterosexual orgies than a large group of exclusive homosexuals and then there is a whole world of the Catamites that you may be aware of (pederasty ) that could have been the subject of so called anti-gay scriptures.

While remaining on the bible don't forget god is happy to use incest as the basis of the foundational family unit (twice - Eden and Noah) , The righteous man Lot has an incestuous relationship with hs daughters, Mary is likely to be a child ( by our laws) when God impregnates her, David and Jonathon 's story seems a clear portrayal of a gay relationship, God rewards men with multiple wives in both biblical and Mormon times, rape is a legitimate biblical way to marry someone, divine genocidal wars spare only virgin women who can be used for sex, even Jesus has an odd relationship with John ( seriously, go look at it again!) , Paul advocates celibacy ( maybe the thorn in his flesh was in some way sexual?) , marriages are arranged according to status, interracial relationships are banned and the cause of sin, and women are legally property in biblical times, they could even be given as sexual partners if they were also unlucky enough to be slaves. In short , defining one man and one woman ( with both as equal partners) ,marrying simply for love ,as normal is about as far from biblical standards as you can get.

Homosexual behaviour is genetic in origin , but like all sex, it is nurtured and trained by culture and environment. Religion tries to put artificial boundaries on natural processes ascribing arbitrary rewards and punishments that shift the balance of power to favour those in power. Joseph Smith introduced polygamy to allow himself and later his trusted supporters sexual access to woman under their spiritual care. Did god reveal that a woman could select multiple males with her as head of the home? Of course not. God(s) always favour the ruling elite.

25

Mormon leaders reach out to gays, lesbian. I,am shocked!!

by jam in

mormon leaders made their most signifcant outreach.

yet to gays and lesbians, unveiling a new website thursday.

that encourages church members to be more compassionate.

Qcmbr

Good discussion about this issue from the underground in LDS world:

http://forum.newordermormon.org/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=29168

25

Mormon leaders reach out to gays, lesbian. I,am shocked!!

by jam in

mormon leaders made their most signifcant outreach.

yet to gays and lesbians, unveiling a new website thursday.

that encourages church members to be more compassionate.

Qcmbr

Cold Steel - having read your response the langauge you are using and the juxtaposition of ideas seems to suggest that you've accepted the Mormon view on sexuality (deviant!) Hopefully you'll consider that the rule you seem to promote (homosexuals must respect your space by not making a move on you) would mean that straight people could also not make advances (who knows when a straight person might make a move on a homosexual person and so not respect their sexual space!) You cannot advocate one rule for the privileged straight people and another for the minority homosexual or bisexual.

If you wish to be homophobic thats fine. What you must own is the cause of it and the consequences. The moment you start pretending that you can discriminate against someone and it is justified and loving you are wrong. Sexual gender preferences are not sins, mental disabilities or character failings. Any church that preaches that they are is a hate filled organisation - no matter what redeeming features they display elsewhere - because it takes that which is natural and turns it into a reason for discrimination (you cannot marry, you must live in secret etc.)

As a male you also may be unaware of the blatant anti woman discrimination in the church as well. Judgemental and heirarchical thinking begets further abuses. The Mormon church - and I still have great fondness for much of it - is riddled with status and privilege - those who can and those who can't - and it is a power play dressed up in a religious story. Please, please put aside that which you have learnt about homosexuality and examine why you think as you do.

58

How many of you have lost your faith on JWN

by Most Noble in

jw
friends

just curious, if anyone had lost faith whilst on jwn and do u think it is an honorable experience?..

Qcmbr

This forum was a crucial tool in allowing me to sidestep faith based filters - I could examine ideas vicariously because they didn't directly attack Mormonism. Once I was comfortable with the idea that faith works on the same principles everywhere and all that changes are the words, rituals and dogma I could be more certain that my Mormon experiences were not exceptional. My testimony was no more special or from god than a JWs convictions, an evangelicals spiritual gifts and the Muslims fervour.

This forum toughened me up and taught me not to respect others supernatural claims. I'm much less gullible, much more skeptical and much happier now that I can see the power of rationality and facts as tools for trust v faith based woo. To those who maintain their faith despite facts evidence and common sense I give a cautious , if disappointed, 'good for you :S'.

Thanks to all who have helped me in my quest for self doubt and the fruits of questioning that faith would have robbed from me.

25

Mormon leaders reach out to gays, lesbian. I,am shocked!!

by jam in

mormon leaders made their most signifcant outreach.

yet to gays and lesbians, unveiling a new website thursday.

that encourages church members to be more compassionate.

Qcmbr

Cold Steel - I think we Mormons are responsible for lots of hate speech , we just called it 'loving guidance from the Lord.' I received the "To Young Men Only " guide when I was in youth and it contained such 'gems' as this:

“It was intended that we use this power only with our partner in marriage. I repeat, very plainly, physical mischief with another man is forbidden. It is forbidden by the Lord.
“There are some men who entice young men to join them in these immoral acts. If you are ever approached to participate in anything like that, it is time to vigorously resist.
“While I was in a mission on one occasion, a missionary said he had something to confess. I was very worried because he just could not get himself to tell me what he had done.
“After patient encouragement he blurted out, ‘I hit my companion.’
“ ‘Oh, is that all,’ I said in great relief.
“ ‘But I floored him,” he said.
“After learning a little more [his companion was gay], my response was ‘Well, thanks. Somebody had to do it, and it wouldn’t have been well for a General Authority to solve the problem that way.’
“I am not recommending that course to you, but I am not omitting it. You must protect yourself.”

1976 General Authority , Boyd K Packer. Pamphlet for Young Men.

Edit: Just to add - as things stand he's next in line to lead the church.

317

Does God's foreknowledge take away from free will?

by Christ Alone in

just by knowing what will happen, that doesn't mean that we can prevent or cause something to happen.

my knowing that does not prevent them the free will of making the choice.. it's the same with god.

if god is not restricted to existence in the present, then the future is known by god because god indwells the future as well as the present and the past.

Qcmbr

If it is possible to know the future then we have a deterministic universe where quantum fluctuations will happen according to the starting conditions of the universe and are playing out exactly as planned/ordered. Humans are a fairly miniscule and irrelevant part of that deterministic universe and are a slave tothat determinism. With regard to the past our present fixes it into set deterministic state, what was must have been for now to be.

If a god exists with the capacity to know the future they have become devoid of free will themselves. Their foreknowledgemust include a knowledge of their future actions as well. A god who knows the end state of a system they interact with is forced to perform miracles, revelations, answers to prayers, no to interact during disasters and so on. This being knows whether he will answer before you ask and cannot chose to act otherwise lest he alter the future.

Such a being negates all divine freedom turning even himself into a slave , a slave held rigidly by observation and information. Once the photon is observed itcan no longer exist as a potentiality and go through both slits in the experiment but must only go through one. This brings the whole cosmic fairytale of xianity to the level of divine farce where god pretends to offer choice , redemption, responsibility and hope but in reality offers merely a script where he plays a central part as the surprised god reacting to human choices in eden and with Jesus. Such a god is doomed by sneaking an early peek at his christmas presents and in dooming himself he also fixes the universe so it must unfold a certain way, free will and quantum fluctuations be damned. What a bast*rd.

56

A Mormon becomes a JW in the Feb 2013 Watchtower...

by cedars in

glancing through the feb 2013 "public" watchtower edition, an interesting article appears on page 8.. here is the pdf download link.... http://www.jw.org/download/?fileformat=pdf&issue=20130201&output=html&pub=wp&langwritten=e&option=trgchlzrqvnyvrxf&txtcmslang=e.

it's interesting how, in the story, the young man's jw aunt and uncle switch him from mormonism to the jw faith using third-party material (the nov 8, 1995 awake!

article), and he ends up becoming a jw after confirming on the official mormon website that the claims in the awake!

Qcmbr

Oh Cold Steel I'm itching.

40

The Nature of God

by sabastious in

i know that judaism and christianity are strongly self professed monotheistic religions.

yet, i wonder how they can so definitively say this when the word they chose to use as the deity in the beginning of their holy scripture is a plural.

genesis 1:1, and all of genesis chapter 1, uses the word "elohim" which is the plural form of "eloah" which is the prolonged form of "el.

Qcmbr

Your misunderstanding of the synergies between Genesis 1 and 2 is why you have so much else wrong.

You of course are error free ;)

Seriously - if you lived in India you could as well be trying to be too deep and mystical about the bhagavad gita, or if you existed 3000 years ago you may well have hugged a tree and asked for everyone to hear the deep earth mysteries as the ancestors whispered to you. You're as much a cultural product as the next person and you have the unfortunate position of having nothing like the original autographs in your hand , no thorough grasp of the languages and cultures that produced them and to further obfuscate meaning you then add a 2012 Western gloss to it all and try and create a new scriptural form and meaning that is alien to the 4th century onwards copy of copy of hearsay books you claim are communicating such hidden knowledge.

Now if you have another means to approach scripture that is free from the fog of culture and the impossibility of understanding an ancient civilisation as required to divine their motives and meanings, feel free to see if it has any merit or whether it simply returns to the basic - if God chooses you you'll get it and he'll whisper meaning to you secretly and subjectively and then it'll all make sense (in a non repeatable or non- testable or contradicts the facts manner).

Surely proving God shouldn't be this hard.

P.S. You're phrase about me studying religion and not living it is rather silly don't you think?