Atheist, 7
Posts by Qcmbr
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191What is your religious belief now?
by jwfacts ini have a new poll at jwfacts.mobi/pollsarchive/ as i am very interested to see what people have moved on to believe.
as this is considered sensitive by some, you can answer anonymously at the jwfacts.mobi/pollsarchive/, or answer on this thread.
this is what i have created in the list, but feel free to add comments, corrections, or options i have missed.. .
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45
A Mormon manages to awaken from mind control with a little help from Jehovah's Witnesses...
by cedars ina brilliant, honest, well presented video.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4s4hqkiiz5a.
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cedars.
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Qcmbr
Yep - that about sums it up. Shunning is also dependant on the person involved and the circumstances of their exit. Go out in a blaze of glory sending emails with damning church history details is a rapid way to get cultural shunning. If you exit slowly or just stop going you may well experience the opposite - very active attempts to reconnect and be involved from Home Teaching and missionary visits right through to being asked to do things at church (a calling such as teaching). If you make it clear you're an apostate you may get an official declaration made to avoid you but oddly enough even that is very patchy. I've not hidden my exit or antipathy and I get missionaries, member visits, big cheery smiles and chats in public and no real evidence of shunning. I think a lot of what goes for cultural shunning in the UK (I can't speak for other countries) is more the uncomfortableness of not knowing what to say to someone who has exited rather than a 'must not speak, god will punish me' JW doctrine. That said - as a kid - I shunned my school friend who exited but I didn't do it consciously , just didn't know how to handle it.
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A Mormon manages to awaken from mind control with a little help from Jehovah's Witnesses...
by cedars ina brilliant, honest, well presented video.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4s4hqkiiz5a.
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cedars.
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Qcmbr
Cedars - excellent point
Cold Steel - I'm not going to try and point out places where the BoM has been refuted, where those supposed miraculous healings didn't occur ( they really didnt) and where those eye witnesses you cite are mythical retellings of less impressive events. Metaphorically I hold cast iron evidence of your 'spouse' cheating on you but I absolutely understand why you wouldn't want to see the pictures, if that ever changes pm me and I'll be there for you. What I do want to address is the methods the LDS church and it's members use for brainwashing/habit forming.
1/ Children are taught biblical stories ,Book of Mormon Stories and foundational LDS stories as fact. They are praised for their acceptance of this information. They are regularly asked to repeat it in talks , primary songs, presentations and in family settings. There is naturally no access to or time given to alternate explanations . Several early concepts of wickedness, the world , Satan and fear are taught as opposition to the truth and that they must fight these things. Primary songs repeat concepts like :
Follow the prophet, follow the prophet,
Follow the prophet; Don't go astray.
Follow the prophet, follow the prophet,
Follow the prophet; He knows the way.
Finally they are habituated into Mormon practises like giving ten percent of their pocket money as tithing, praying about everything, blessing food at the tables and so forth.
2/- Framing. As a child this was done to me and as a missionary I unwittingly used the same technique. Whenever I felt emotion, adrenaline, euphoria, awe, peace, extreme happiness, strong empathy or idealistic hope burnt in my chest - as long as I remember- my peers told me that that was the spirit, that was my testimony, that was god revealing to me his love. I began to associate all those beautiful parts of human emotion , especially the concentrated ones ( like the moment of the birth of my children, the first time one of my kids told me they loved me, when people did really kind things for me etc) as the results of the spirit. When I taught people on my mission I did the same,
'Mike, as we talk today, we're going to cover some special and important concepts and the spirit of god will be here <pause> it's going to feel different, you're going to feel different , in here <touch chest> and here <touch head> as we talk about the love you have for our Saviour and how he's working now in the world I want you to listen to those feelings of the Spirit.'
Low educated Mike would now have been anchored by my words to expect odd feelings and with a sense of expectation which I had framed such that, as long as he felt somewhat different to his usual self, I'd be able to claim was a divine affirmation of the whole presentation. Brainwashing / parlour trick/ neuro linguistic programming - call it what you will. It worked like a charm.
3/- Groupthink. Hymns, shared prayers, shared rituals ( blessings, baptisms, giving priesthood, sacrament, gift of the Holy Ghost etc.) , talks , lessons taught to each other, frequent visits by home teachers / visiting teachers, callings ( jobs within the church), regular administrative meetings , publically bearing testimony and so on are all behaviours that encourage certain patterns of thinking and acting ( and are repeated so frequently that they become unthought about second nature to seasoned members ) such that their is a truth that active Mormons across the world are very similar. It is almost impossible to gain acceptance in the group if you do not adhere to the phrasing, mannerisms, dress sense and ritualistic order of behaviour. Think of how uncomfortable we felt when someone did something 'incorrect' while bearing a testimony ( sang a song, went on too long, talked about something non- belief related, said something from another faith's language or cracked a joke) , people would possibly say afterwards that the spirit left the meeting or some other such idea. There is a 'hidden' set of LDS commandments more powerful than the written ones, it involves white shirts, facial hair, tattoos, earrings, musical instruments in sacrament meeting, skirt length, dancing distance, disco lighting, chaperoned lifts, missionary visit lengths, things you must not talk about, things you shoud talk about, what is gossip and what is not and so on.
4/- Double binds. Do not lie / if you don't have a testimony bear it till you get one, the first law of heaven is obedience / the spirit of the law, free agency / obey your leaders, the prophet speaks on behalf of god / sometimes the prophet speaks as a man.
TL:DR. Personal LDS examples of mind control.
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A Mormon manages to awaken from mind control with a little help from Jehovah's Witnesses...
by cedars ina brilliant, honest, well presented video.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4s4hqkiiz5a.
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cedars.
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Qcmbr
The common factor between all religions is faith. All that changes is the order the ingredients are mixed and the presentation of the final product. One religion may say they are true because they uniquely have men who dance in skirts, another claims they are true because they cannibalise human flesh , another claims it is true because they have new scripture and so on. Coming to this site and reading about how people feel, what the day to day consequences of faith are and how supernatural beliefs make people talk and think a certain way was fundamental in helping me see how similar we all are. I think Mormonism and Witnesses are cut from the same cloth simply because they are a product of the same culture albeit separated by a few decades. They have different peripheral doctrines and practices that are open to change ( revelation or new light) that the members mistake as core doctrines but both have the same core doctrines that the members accept but don't think about as the real heart of the faith ( unquestionable authority in the hands of a self appointed few).
I was at first dismayed and then glad to see the same real experiences simply dressed in different terminology between the two faiths as expressed here. People talked of the demands to put church before family and self by attending meetings, reaching out for responsibility, the boredom of having the same bland material each meeting, the human cost of placing untrained men in charge of others lives on such matters as relationships, social activities, gender preference, finance, approved media, clothing, medical matters, bereavement and loss counselling, punishment and so on. I found the words of encouragement ( wait on Jehovah / endure to the end) ,constraint ( don't run faster than Jehovah's chariot / follow the prophet ) and excuses for failure ( over zealous brethren / sometimes the prophet speaks as a man ) all identical in meaning but using different group buzz words.
The effects of both faiths are similar , both provide roles that allow certain people to experience high levels of influence and control, both do improve certain peoples lifestyles ( those in need of strong social support and peer pressure to avoid self harming habits like drugs), they do geberally provide comfort in times of grief, they give structure to behaviour, they induce feelings of devotion, euphoria and a strong sense of self improvement but at the cost of seeping, unrelenting guilt, the rejection of 'the world' and the handing over of self to group ( you no longer have full rights to your mind and body.)
Lastly I want to note what they do that is very, very wrong and both are culpable of. They present themselves as the ultimate source of knowledge. This has allowed them to make dangerous medical advice ( no blood / gay electro shock therapy) , to make immoral social advice ( no gay marriage / no interracial marriage ) , to lie to whomever they need to ( theocratic warfare / lying for the Lord ), to support bad science ( flood / Indians are Israelites ), to suppress education ( evolution ) , to create arbitrary rules with huge social consequences ( military service / polygamy ) , to indulge and protect the human frailties of the leaders while condemning it in the flock ( excessive drinking / adultery ) , to waste the money of its members in non charitable ways ( Beth Sarim / City Creek ) but above all to nullify thought and deny members the right to seek out knowledge from all sources - they replace scientific thought and process with blind faith and trust in the structure.
TL:DR Doctrines , words, rituals may be different but effects on the mind , members and in day to day practice are the same.
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A recent discussion that had me stumped!
by Terry inokay--first off, i wasn't involved in the following conversation; i was eavesdropping!.
you know how it is when you happen to be in a public place.
you are minding your own business until you're not minding your own business.
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Qcmbr
This would be my take on it:
'Good' and 'Bad' are relative concepts that have different weights when seen from different viewpoints (personal, kin, clan, species) , that which is good from a personal viewpoint (fulfilling my desire to torch a building) is bad from a kin/clan viewpoint (possible injury, loss of resources) and so on. Sexual immorality is good from a species viewpoint (if gene mixing outweighs sexual disease propagation) but bad from a kin / clan viewpoint and so on. Local conditions can flip these rules as well (war will make the act of killing a temporary clan virtue for the winning side.)
There is a further part to this equation, cost, does this action have an opportunity cost that overall outweighs the benefit (allowing a child to set fire to a building will have an excessive opportunity cost - lost resources, utility and labour - to the small benefit - the child's ability to act.)
Thus , it may indeed be wrong for homosexuals to marry under certain circumstances (to be extreme let's say it causes the spread of a deadly disease that threatens mankind) or the cost of allowing their self determination may be too great in terms of opportunity cost (all heterosexual men have died from a pron virus! and not enforcing gay men to procreate with women will end mankind.) It may indeed be right for children to be allowed to burn buildings (war sabotage) and so on. I will return to this point.
The question is not therefore an appeal to a Platonic perfect concept ('good'/'bad') nor a question of what was considered good or bad yesterday. It is an evaluation of what is good or bad today. In a highly religious country it may be bad to allow homosexual marriage because the result will be mob violence and lynching of those couples, in other words the opportunity cost is too high as it results in physical harm and death. In a more tolerant (dare I say - normally secular) society the cost of homosexual marriage is low, the consequences are low and the happiness of self determination and cultural acceptance is very high. The cost of allowing a house to be burnt however, is still very high and the benefit very low.
Final point. As society gains more freedom from necessity and more resources to satisfy desire the moral goalposts shift, imo, as we can begin to allow deviation from the norm. That which was immoral or 'bad' can reverse. Here's a common example. I am free to go to a PC and by virtue of free time , technology and abundant resources and in a virtual world shoot and maim virtual people. At no stage would it be defensible to say that killing people is a standard 'good' behaviour but technology has reduced it's cost so low that the benefit of my adrenaline fueled high arguably outweighs the cost, it becomes permissable and good (to me) and tolerable to society (low to zero cost). There is a contentious edge to this - in a world of virtual options where it is already possible to perform the very worst of human crimes (killing) there is an argument that people who enjoy burning houses or abusing children should be given virtual environments in which to experience who they are by nature. In short we may be entering a golden age where we no longer need to deny who we or anybody are as long as we learn to express that in safe, virtual environments. Once we have removed , by resource abundance, the need to hurt or use other real people what was good or bad today may not be so tomorrow. imo.
TL:DR Concepts of good and bad are relative to viewpoint and current local conditions.
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302
TEC Documentary hypothesis
by mP incontinuing on our mini discussing at.
http://jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/beliefs/246435/8/greatest-show-on-earth#4664173.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/documentary_hypothesis.
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Qcmbr
I'm just glad that, morally, I prefer me to Jesus.I have recorded for all to see my disgust at slavery, homophobia, sexism and sexual abuse. I have never, nor would seek to, throw a farmers herd of pigs off a cliff, infect or destroy a fruit bearing plant in response to it currently having no fruit, offer medical services only upon the person's belief in supernatural magic, encourage the bearing of and purchase of weapons, encourage people to leave family relationships on my behalf, inyroduce very dangerous fasting habits, condone books supportive of genocide and virgin rape, have people give me expensive gifts of gold and perfume as an act of worship, encourage running away from parents and speaking insolently to panicked parents and finally, i would never threaten people with hell, pretend they needed a blood sacrifice to pay me for arbitrary rule transgressions i had concocted in iron age ethical surroundings and then tell everyone i would be ruling them forever.
Mainly i just keep my head down, work hard and try to live and let live.
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The Mormons would not let me speak at my Dad's funeral
by FormerMormon in--because i no longer nelieve.
i was excommunicated for "apostasy".
that was their rationale for not allowing me to speak at his funeral last month.
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Qcmbr
Wow - that is awful. Hope they wake up and apologise.
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Crazy Religions
by Qcmbr ini was reading a good article regarding the relative 'craziness' of faiths (blog) and they mentioned a lot about mormons.
in short they talked about the socially accepted craziness (as opposed to actual mental illness) of mainstream , culturally accepted faiths v those that are relatively new.
we see scientology as more crazy than catholicism if we fall into the trap of judging without consideration but when examined all religions have very crazy elements.
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Qcmbr
Parakeet, I agree it was amazing to see no triumphalism in my loss of faith. Made me realise that I'd been fighting a war , as a believer, on a battleground I'd made up. What I saw as persecution and abuse was more often than not illustrative facts and the harsh but justified comparison between my belief and the historical results of those beliefs. As a believer I refused to accept that the skeptical posts were attacking ideas and demanded in my own whiny posts that we move the debate away from the really painful areas ( facts, history and logic) to areas I felt equal (persecution, name calling) by reframing other posters posts as personal attacks. I chose to make things about persecution because then the content of a post can be ignored and rejected. Evolution? pffft they said my faith was crazy how dare they.
All along I made my faith all about everyone and anyone who disagreed all about me. A cunning but self defeating tactic. Thankfully I learnt so much from the threads I simply observed that , added to other research, I came to a strong self realisation that I was simply wrong.
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Didn't Jesus symbolically give a blood transfusion for all of mankind?
by yadda yadda 2 injesus poured out his life blood, his soul, on behalf of mankind.
the wine taken at the memorial of christ's death represents this life, given as a sacrifice to atone for adamic sins.
jesus said that unless you eat of his flesh and drink of his blood, you have no life in yourself.
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Qcmbr
YY2 - blood transfusions are an issue in the health decisions of many simply because of the effects of faith. Faith allows anyone with a god complex or desire to preach the drive to say anything they want while simultaneously claiming they aren't responsible for it because it's god's word and they are simply the messenger ( even bible Jesus played this card) . As an atheist I can see why having a spiritual gotcha answer is desirable for a faith motivated ex JW, it allows a supposed tool that threatens a JW canard while being rendered useless against personal faith ,but I see faith as the real issue not simply one batsh!t and dangerous manifestation of it. For me, I will bang this drum not in some desire to do battle with firm believers but to hopefully share a salient truth for those experiencing a faith crisis. Sure we may all one day rejoice in the victory over irrational faith justified avoidance of transfusions but until we consistently destroy the root of this irrationality, faith, then another preacher will spring up and dupe their followers to do something equally tragic.
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Crazy Religions
by Qcmbr ini was reading a good article regarding the relative 'craziness' of faiths (blog) and they mentioned a lot about mormons.
in short they talked about the socially accepted craziness (as opposed to actual mental illness) of mainstream , culturally accepted faiths v those that are relatively new.
we see scientology as more crazy than catholicism if we fall into the trap of judging without consideration but when examined all religions have very crazy elements.
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Qcmbr
Hi Cold Steel, it was such a shock to me to find out what living in Utah was like in the early days because now that Mormonism is ultra respectable and SLC is beautiful and prosperous it is hard to see how it could have been anything else. Here is one primary source that I found very illuminating. There are lots more which I can provide on request but I would ask that you start with this one: This is the story of the most notorious of Brigham Young's wives, Wife No. 19
http://archive.org/details/wifenoorstoryofl00youniala
This story does not focus on what Joseph did or said but on what Brigham did. Joseph had his own set of totalitarian ideas such as breaking the free press ,being crowned King of the world, marching on Kirtland at the head of an army to reclaim it in blood etc. but we can look at those later if you'd like.