Hi - nope - the actual figures are much lower. The 14 million include those who have taken their names off the membership records but are still counted.
Posts by Qcmbr
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85Mormons getting hollowed out: The tipping point has occurred.
by Qcmbr inever since mitt romney turned the spotlight on the lds church a growing tsunami of disaffection has been accelerated and brought to a head.. the lds core faithful members are leaving in increasing numbers such that growth has not simply stagnated in the west but it has actively reversed.
to their credit the church is responding aggressively but not only is it too late, it is an impossible task.
you can only paint sh*t so many ways.
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85
Mormons getting hollowed out: The tipping point has occurred.
by Qcmbr inever since mitt romney turned the spotlight on the lds church a growing tsunami of disaffection has been accelerated and brought to a head.. the lds core faithful members are leaving in increasing numbers such that growth has not simply stagnated in the west but it has actively reversed.
to their credit the church is responding aggressively but not only is it too late, it is an impossible task.
you can only paint sh*t so many ways.
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Qcmbr
Just a quick update: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RV7rmfex4VI&sns=fb
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139
Ever consider joining The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?
by rawe inhas anyone here left jehovah's witnesses to join the churuch of jesus christ of latter-day saints?
what was your motivation for doing so and how has it worked out?.
if you haven't joined the lds or considered it, as an ex-jw, what is your general view of the lds faith?.
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Qcmbr
..and its a great point podo! if you really look at the BoM it is filled with this kind of mistake that a poorly educated farm boy with a vivid imagination and the basic libraries available to him at the time would be expected to make in the construction of a fantasy.
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139
Ever consider joining The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?
by rawe inhas anyone here left jehovah's witnesses to join the churuch of jesus christ of latter-day saints?
what was your motivation for doing so and how has it worked out?.
if you haven't joined the lds or considered it, as an ex-jw, what is your general view of the lds faith?.
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Qcmbr
When I believed I couldn't understand the relevance of no outside scholars agreeing with BoM historical claims. It was this huge gaping blind spot in my thinking that stopped me realising the obvious. If Cold can stop and think about why no one else in the world of science , history , Egyptology or archaeology agrees with any core Mormon assertions it will hopefully break this mental block. It amazes me how powerful and blinding belief makes us. The constant reliance on faith over rational logic in an evolutionary world still gives me pause to think about what evolutionary advantage faith must give.
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139
Ever consider joining The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?
by rawe inhas anyone here left jehovah's witnesses to join the churuch of jesus christ of latter-day saints?
what was your motivation for doing so and how has it worked out?.
if you haven't joined the lds or considered it, as an ex-jw, what is your general view of the lds faith?.
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Qcmbr
While you are at it have a look at what your best evidence for the Book of Mormon is - the killer argument. I suggest you'll choose between chiastic forms or NHM/NHR. We have more evidence for a tiny Viking settlement in Americas than for the huge Jaredite , Nephite and Lamanite civilisations. hmm.
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139
Ever consider joining The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?
by rawe inhas anyone here left jehovah's witnesses to join the churuch of jesus christ of latter-day saints?
what was your motivation for doing so and how has it worked out?.
if you haven't joined the lds or considered it, as an ex-jw, what is your general view of the lds faith?.
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Qcmbr
You really think your evidence against is better than my evidencefor
Yes - that's why I was forced to confront reality despite wanting it all to be true. You don't know what your line is the sand is. With Joseph and the church you have no criteria for determining what is true or false. Right now you would struggle to articulate what would be too far, too ridiculous, too far fetched in the history of JS. This is where I was.
Please feel free to compare the list of Book of Mormon animals
Asses
Cattle
Cows
Cummoms
Cureloms
Elephants
Fish
Game
Goat
Horses
Oxen
Serpents
Sheep
Swine
Vultureswith the indigenous animals of North and South America and see how many hits you get and ask yourself why Joseph didn't include any easy hits.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_South_American_mammals
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mammals_of_North_America
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139
Ever consider joining The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?
by rawe inhas anyone here left jehovah's witnesses to join the churuch of jesus christ of latter-day saints?
what was your motivation for doing so and how has it worked out?.
if you haven't joined the lds or considered it, as an ex-jw, what is your general view of the lds faith?.
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Qcmbr
Cold -
The same was said of Christ - I don't believe in that person as a divine being and the myth of Christ is awful to me. A cult is a cult. So agreed.
The only 16-year old I know of was Helen Mar Kimball - you'll be glad of this additional info then: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fanny_Alger http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org/02-FannyAlger.htm http://mormonthink.com/QUOTES/jsplural.htm You could argue that it wasn't sexual but then you'd have to argue that , since the sealing keys weren't given till later on, that Joseph was simply marrying pluraly with no celestial hope or promise. I can think of no rational reason why someone would simply marry additional women for no particular reason. To anyone not familiar with this modern mormons consider plural marriage to be synonymous with celestial marriage (a marriage performed by priesthood keys to seal multiple women to a single man to be wives for eternity) This is a salient point here because in Mormon History , when Jospeh 'married' Fanny the sealing keys had not been restored meaning that the marriage only had effect on earth and was simply a plural marriage - if it wasn't for sex what was it for? She was already his adopted daughter and the end result of this marriage was that as soon as Joseph's first wife, Emma, found out she chucked Fanny out of the family home.
the people who visited the “altar” said it was not in one piece . - this isn't the point , the point is it would have been buried rather than neatly uncovered. Anyhow it was a simple example of Joseph making stuff up on the spot - I could mention Zelph and Onandagus but to what end? - they aren't even in the scriptures. His mother said the following:
" During our evening conversations, Joseph would occasionally give us some of the most amusing recitals that could be imagined. He would describe the ancient inhabitants of this continent, their dress, mode of travelings, and the animals upon which they rode; their cities, their buildings, with every particular; their mode of warfare; and also their religious worship. This he would do with as much ease, seemingly, as if he had spent his whole life among them."
Last one since I normally hate line by line rebuttals but this is a pretty fatal mormon fact and if it simply bounces off your mind without even a momentary pause then - shrugs - you never really wanted to know:
Joseph writes a book full of copy errors, factual mistakes and impossibilities — in the style of a pious schoolbook from his youth — and then tries to sell it.
Of what book are you speaking? Sounds like you’re copying and pasting from somewhere.
Clearly I'm not copying and pasting a sentence of my own construction doh - I was referring to the Book of Mormon which Joseph tried to sell the copyright of with its impossible historical events, incorrect flora and fauna and anachronisms. I did post links to the books he lifted style and content from earlier in this thread but you missed them; I care enough about you to do your homework though: http://archive.org/stream/firstbooknapole00gruagoog#page/n17/mode/2up and this one - http://archive.org/stream/latewarbetweenun00inhunt#page/n13/mode/2up .
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340
Fallacies about Faith
by tec inpeace to you!.
this thread is about false things (some) atheists think theists believe.
this is not a thread about false things that atheists think about theists.
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Qcmbr
Here's an on topic idea to discuss:
As evidenced by this thread, faith leads to very sophisticated metaphysical arguments to support or explain situations the secular world judges simply immoral.
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139
Ever consider joining The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?
by rawe inhas anyone here left jehovah's witnesses to join the churuch of jesus christ of latter-day saints?
what was your motivation for doing so and how has it worked out?.
if you haven't joined the lds or considered it, as an ex-jw, what is your general view of the lds faith?.
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Qcmbr
Cold - what information have you considered that is not supportive of Mormonism?
No matter how impressive you think Mormon scholarly efforts are you must , if you think long and hard about it, wonder why non Mormon scholars disagree completely with ancient history of America as described by Joseph and his non Mormon contempories. Where Mormon scholars talk about real things ( like the dead sea scrolls) there is a vast agreement and support from all other educational bodies. To a believing Mormon this discrepancy can only be squared by imagining a vast , coordinated, secular conspiracy to discredit Mormonism by suppressing truth. Common sense tells us that the reason such organisations as the Smithsonian don't agree to Jaredite,Nephite and Lamanite existence is for far simpler and more honest reasons - no evidence whatsoever, no buildings, no remains, no records and no artefacts.
- Joseph has sex with his adopted daughter (16 years old)
- Joseph has sex with married women
- Joseph drinks alcohol, owns businesses involved in alcohol production and sale all after his factually incorrect Word of Wisdom revelation
- Joseph makes up tall tales regularly ( for example claiming a stone structure was actually Adam's altar but forgetting what a flood would do)
- Joseph caught pretending to translate ( kinder hook, Greek psalter and in our day Book of Abraham)
- Joseph writes a book full of copy errors , factual mistakes and impossibilities - in the style of a pious schoolbook from his youth - and then tries to sell it
- Joseph tells people of supernatural occurrences many years after and gets his salient facts wrong many times ( confusing Nephi with Moroni, giving different divine responses to different questions to different people in the same 'First Vision')
There has to be a point where you recognise a charismatic con man when you see him.
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340
Fallacies about Faith
by tec inpeace to you!.
this thread is about false things (some) atheists think theists believe.
this is not a thread about false things that atheists think about theists.
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Qcmbr
Joshua 7:10-15 - human sacrifice
10 The Lord said to Joshua, “Stand up! What are you doing down on your face? 11 Israel has sinned; they have violated my covenant, which I commanded them to keep. They have taken some of the devoted things; they have stolen, they have lied, they have put them with their own possessions. 12 That is why the Israelites cannot stand against their enemies; they turn their backs and run because they have been made liable to destruction. I will not be with you anymore unless you destroy whatever among you is devoted to destruction.
13 “Go, consecrate the people. Tell them, ‘Consecrate yourselves in preparation for tomorrow; for this is what the Lord , the God of Israel, says: There are devoted things among you, Israel. You cannot stand against your enemies until you remove them.
14 “‘In the morning, present yourselves tribe by tribe. The tribe the Lord chooses shall come forward clan by clan; the clan the Lord chooses shall come forward family by family; and the family the Lord chooses shall come forward man by man. 15 Whoever is caught with the devoted things shall be destroyed by fire, along with all that belongs to him. He has violated the covenant of the Lord and has done an outrageous thing in Israel!’”