ever since mitt romney turned the spotlight on the lds church a growing tsunami of disaffection has been accelerated and brought to a head.. the lds core faithful members are leaving in increasing numbers such that growth has not simply stagnated in the west but it has actively reversed.
to their credit the church is responding aggressively but not only is it too late, it is an impossible task.
you can only paint sh*t so many ways.
As of 31 December 2012, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints reported 188,462 members in 45 stakes, 335 Congregations (286 wards[1] and 49 branches[1]), 6 missions, and 2 temples in the United Kingdom. (wikipaedia)
I'm part of an active ex LDs community and in a straw poll of the 200 members of that group a rough average active membership per ward , being generous, was 120.
120 * 335 = 40200.
188462 - 40200 = 148262 inactive members in the UK.
ever since mitt romney turned the spotlight on the lds church a growing tsunami of disaffection has been accelerated and brought to a head.. the lds core faithful members are leaving in increasing numbers such that growth has not simply stagnated in the west but it has actively reversed.
to their credit the church is responding aggressively but not only is it too late, it is an impossible task.
you can only paint sh*t so many ways.
Hi - nope - the actual figures are much lower. The 14 million include those who have taken their names off the membership records but are still counted.
ever since mitt romney turned the spotlight on the lds church a growing tsunami of disaffection has been accelerated and brought to a head.. the lds core faithful members are leaving in increasing numbers such that growth has not simply stagnated in the west but it has actively reversed.
to their credit the church is responding aggressively but not only is it too late, it is an impossible task.
you can only paint sh*t so many ways.
Just a quick update: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RV7rmfex4VI&sns=fb
has anyone here left jehovah's witnesses to join the churuch of jesus christ of latter-day saints?
what was your motivation for doing so and how has it worked out?.
if you haven't joined the lds or considered it, as an ex-jw, what is your general view of the lds faith?.
..and its a great point podo! if you really look at the BoM it is filled with this kind of mistake that a poorly educated farm boy with a vivid imagination and the basic libraries available to him at the time would be expected to make in the construction of a fantasy.
has anyone here left jehovah's witnesses to join the churuch of jesus christ of latter-day saints?
what was your motivation for doing so and how has it worked out?.
if you haven't joined the lds or considered it, as an ex-jw, what is your general view of the lds faith?.
When I believed I couldn't understand the relevance of no outside scholars agreeing with BoM historical claims. It was this huge gaping blind spot in my thinking that stopped me realising the obvious. If Cold can stop and think about why no one else in the world of science , history , Egyptology or archaeology agrees with any core Mormon assertions it will hopefully break this mental block. It amazes me how powerful and blinding belief makes us. The constant reliance on faith over rational logic in an evolutionary world still gives me pause to think about what evolutionary advantage faith must give.
has anyone here left jehovah's witnesses to join the churuch of jesus christ of latter-day saints?
what was your motivation for doing so and how has it worked out?.
if you haven't joined the lds or considered it, as an ex-jw, what is your general view of the lds faith?.
While you are at it have a look at what your best evidence for the Book of Mormon is - the killer argument. I suggest you'll choose between chiastic forms or NHM/NHR. We have more evidence for a tiny Viking settlement in Americas than for the huge Jaredite , Nephite and Lamanite civilisations. hmm.
has anyone here left jehovah's witnesses to join the churuch of jesus christ of latter-day saints?
what was your motivation for doing so and how has it worked out?.
if you haven't joined the lds or considered it, as an ex-jw, what is your general view of the lds faith?.
You really think your evidence against is better than my evidencefor
Yes - that's why I was forced to confront reality despite wanting it all to be true. You don't know what your line is the sand is. With Joseph and the church you have no criteria for determining what is true or false. Right now you would struggle to articulate what would be too far, too ridiculous, too far fetched in the history of JS. This is where I was.
Please feel free to compare the list of Book of Mormon animals
Asses
Cattle
Cows
Cummoms
Cureloms
Elephants
Fish
Game
Goat
Horses
Oxen
Serpents
Sheep
Swine
Vultures
with the indigenous animals of North and South America and see how many hits you get and ask yourself why Joseph didn't include any easy hits.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_South_American_mammals
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mammals_of_North_America
has anyone here left jehovah's witnesses to join the churuch of jesus christ of latter-day saints?
what was your motivation for doing so and how has it worked out?.
if you haven't joined the lds or considered it, as an ex-jw, what is your general view of the lds faith?.
Cold -
The same was said of Christ - I don't believe in that person as a divine being and the myth of Christ is awful to me. A cult is a cult. So agreed.
The only 16-year old I know of was Helen Mar Kimball - you'll be glad of this additional info then: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fanny_Alger http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org/02-FannyAlger.htm http://mormonthink.com/QUOTES/jsplural.htm You could argue that it wasn't sexual but then you'd have to argue that , since the sealing keys weren't given till later on, that Joseph was simply marrying pluraly with no celestial hope or promise. I can think of no rational reason why someone would simply marry additional women for no particular reason. To anyone not familiar with this modern mormons consider plural marriage to be synonymous with celestial marriage (a marriage performed by priesthood keys to seal multiple women to a single man to be wives for eternity) This is a salient point here because in Mormon History , when Jospeh 'married' Fanny the sealing keys had not been restored meaning that the marriage only had effect on earth and was simply a plural marriage - if it wasn't for sex what was it for? She was already his adopted daughter and the end result of this marriage was that as soon as Joseph's first wife, Emma, found out she chucked Fanny out of the family home.
the people who visited the “altar” said it was not in one piece . - this isn't the point , the point is it would have been buried rather than neatly uncovered. Anyhow it was a simple example of Joseph making stuff up on the spot - I could mention Zelph and Onandagus but to what end? - they aren't even in the scriptures. His mother said the following:
" During our evening conversations, Joseph would occasionally give us some of the most amusing recitals that could be imagined. He would describe the ancient inhabitants of this continent, their dress, mode of travelings, and the animals upon which they rode; their cities, their buildings, with every particular; their mode of warfare; and also their religious worship. This he would do with as much ease, seemingly, as if he had spent his whole life among them."
Last one since I normally hate line by line rebuttals but this is a pretty fatal mormon fact and if it simply bounces off your mind without even a momentary pause then - shrugs - you never really wanted to know:
Joseph writes a book full of copy errors, factual mistakes and impossibilities — in the style of a pious schoolbook from his youth — and then tries to sell it.
Of what book are you speaking? Sounds like you’re copying and pasting from somewhere.
Clearly I'm not copying and pasting a sentence of my own construction doh - I was referring to the Book of Mormon which Joseph tried to sell the copyright of with its impossible historical events, incorrect flora and fauna and anachronisms. I did post links to the books he lifted style and content from earlier in this thread but you missed them; I care enough about you to do your homework though: http://archive.org/stream/firstbooknapole00gruagoog#page/n17/mode/2up and this one - http://archive.org/stream/latewarbetweenun00inhunt#page/n13/mode/2up .
peace to you!.
this thread is about false things (some) atheists think theists believe.
this is not a thread about false things that atheists think about theists.
Here's an on topic idea to discuss:
As evidenced by this thread, faith leads to very sophisticated metaphysical arguments to support or explain situations the secular world judges simply immoral.
has anyone here left jehovah's witnesses to join the churuch of jesus christ of latter-day saints?
what was your motivation for doing so and how has it worked out?.
if you haven't joined the lds or considered it, as an ex-jw, what is your general view of the lds faith?.
Cold - what information have you considered that is not supportive of Mormonism?
No matter how impressive you think Mormon scholarly efforts are you must , if you think long and hard about it, wonder why non Mormon scholars disagree completely with ancient history of America as described by Joseph and his non Mormon contempories. Where Mormon scholars talk about real things ( like the dead sea scrolls) there is a vast agreement and support from all other educational bodies. To a believing Mormon this discrepancy can only be squared by imagining a vast , coordinated, secular conspiracy to discredit Mormonism by suppressing truth. Common sense tells us that the reason such organisations as the Smithsonian don't agree to Jaredite,Nephite and Lamanite existence is for far simpler and more honest reasons - no evidence whatsoever, no buildings, no remains, no records and no artefacts.
There has to be a point where you recognise a charismatic con man when you see him.
