Posts by myelaine

47

If there is such a thing as ORIGINAL SIN what does that do to "morality"?

by Terry in

"it is the concept of original sin that negates morality.. if man is guilty by nature, he has no choice about it.. if he has no choice, the issue does not belong in the field of morality.

morality pertains only to the sphere of man's free will -- only to those actions which are open to his choice.. to consider man guilty by nature is a contradiction in terms.".

augustine had the mistaken view that many metaphysicians had at that time: all humans were "nested" inside of adam like those russian dolls that fit inside each other.

myelaine

dear Terry...

you asked: " I have to ask you what KIND of choice is a non-moral choice (4.) when it entails disobedience to God"...

Adam could easily have made many non-moral choices. everything was handed to him, he wasn't put into a position where he had to choose between obedience or disobedience (it was only the immediate introduction of such a choice that was his downfall)...it seems to me from reading the text...he'd never had a "moral" dilemma in which he could excersise his free will in this way before.

I never suggested anything about magical power but adam did have some realisation of his fall from grace.

you asked: "What benefit is there to a "moral code" in humans with a "fallen nature"? If Adam would not be obedient with his nature why would Adam's offspring possess greater ability in their own nature?"...

A&E fell from grace (they were no longer allowed to eat from the tree of life), they had the same "nature" both in the garden and out of the garden. that is the manner in which they took their "original sin" with them out of the garden, romans 5:12. the only way re-introduce the grace of God is to listen to Him...john 8:24

you asked: "What benefit is there to a "moral code" in humans with a "fallen nature"?...

I thought that we agreed that the moral code is taught/learned not something that is "in" us, per se.?...it is helpful to know your rights AND obligations within a community.

you said: "The "unity" of the people of God could only have reality if they ceased to have human nature."...

it is a new creation, a divine nature, one in which the old nature is overcome (with the help of the Holy Spirit) by imitating the heart and mind of Christ...in that "being of one mind" IS unity of the Spirit.

love michelle

5

Was Jesus admonition to remain no part of the world good advice or not?

by tootired2care in

in thinking about my own life, i think i can safely trace most of my excluded outcast childhood to jesus words in the bible to: "remain no part of the world".

sure the wts in their legalistic thinking probably mis-applied this text, but it's still a prominent belief for other groups like the amish too.. no doubt many of us ex witnesses have issues with our childhood, who doesn't, right?

still, that admonition from jesus in my opinion has so much wrong with it.

myelaine

dear tootired2care...

I think that Jesus was saying in essence that generally, the "world" drifts away from God (and godliness). He says that His followers are in the "world" but are no part of the "world"... ie. they don't drift away from God(and HIS precepts).

It is good advice to "stand" for something instead of drift along with the current.

love michelle

39

Need Help - Parent in ICU

by AudeSapere in

df parent is in hospital icu and surgeon wants to give blood.

parent is df for almost 20 and firmly refused blood for personal reasons (spiritual).. .

my concern is that parent is taking strong stand based on outdated jw gb hlc guidelines.

myelaine

dear Aude Sapere...

have you thought about calling in the JW Hospital Liaison Committee and confronting them with the "official" documents on blood fractions etc.? Then they would HAVE to advise your parent regarding the availability of some course of treatment using blood (or risk their own "blood guilt" don't forget to mention that!). This might ease the parent's mind and in so doing allow them to make the best choice.

I hope for the best for both of you.

love michelle

47

If there is such a thing as ORIGINAL SIN what does that do to "morality"?

by Terry in

"it is the concept of original sin that negates morality.. if man is guilty by nature, he has no choice about it.. if he has no choice, the issue does not belong in the field of morality.

morality pertains only to the sphere of man's free will -- only to those actions which are open to his choice.. to consider man guilty by nature is a contradiction in terms.".

augustine had the mistaken view that many metaphysicians had at that time: all humans were "nested" inside of adam like those russian dolls that fit inside each other.

myelaine

in this way moral codes can be seen as societal, taught by parents, the group etc...apart from obedience to God.

but...in conjunction with these codes...some parents teach the need for obedience to God.

societal moral codes and obedience to God are not the same...romans 2:23,27

that is why moral codes will not bring about "unity" of the people...but obedience to God will bring about "unity" of the Spirit in the people of God (romans 2:28-29).

love michelle

47

If there is such a thing as ORIGINAL SIN what does that do to "morality"?

by Terry in

"it is the concept of original sin that negates morality.. if man is guilty by nature, he has no choice about it.. if he has no choice, the issue does not belong in the field of morality.

morality pertains only to the sphere of man's free will -- only to those actions which are open to his choice.. to consider man guilty by nature is a contradiction in terms.".

augustine had the mistaken view that many metaphysicians had at that time: all humans were "nested" inside of adam like those russian dolls that fit inside each other.

myelaine

Adam did follow his nature up until he chose to be disobedient(he didn't have a sense of "moral choice" until he ate from the tree of knowledge of GOOD and EVIL). he became a victim of someone who knew about "moral" choice, satan.

xo

47

If there is such a thing as ORIGINAL SIN what does that do to "morality"?

by Terry in

"it is the concept of original sin that negates morality.. if man is guilty by nature, he has no choice about it.. if he has no choice, the issue does not belong in the field of morality.

morality pertains only to the sphere of man's free will -- only to those actions which are open to his choice.. to consider man guilty by nature is a contradiction in terms.".

augustine had the mistaken view that many metaphysicians had at that time: all humans were "nested" inside of adam like those russian dolls that fit inside each other.

myelaine

dear Terry...

the fact that A&E had the choice between eating from all the trees and one tree shows that their original sin wasn't one of morality but obedience.

Jesus was without sin because He always (even preincarnate) did the will of His Father...He was obedient.

The Lord possessed me at the beginning of His way,
Before His works of old.
I have been established from everlasting,
From the beginning, before there was ever an earth.
When there were no depths I was brought forth,
When there were no fountains abounding with water.
Before the mountains were settled,
Before the hills, I was brought forth;
While as yet He had not made the earth or the fields,
Or the primal dust of the world.
When He prepared the heavens, I was there,
When He drew a circle on the face of the deep,
When He established the clouds above,
When He strengthened the fountains of the deep,
When He assigned to the sea its limit,
So that the waters would not transgress His command,
When He marked out the foundations of the earth,
Then I was beside Him as a master craftsman;
And I was daily His delight,
Rejoicing always before Him,
Rejoicing in His inhabited world,
And my delight was with the sons of men.

“Now therefore, listen to me, my children,
For blessed are those who keep my ways.
Hear instruction and be wise,
And do not disdain it.
Blessed is the man who listens to me,
Watching daily at my gates,
Waiting at the posts of my doors.
For whoever finds me finds life,
And obtains favor from the Lord ;
But he who sins against me wrongs his own soul;
All those who hate me love death.” (proverbs 8:22-36)

love michelle

31

Is it WHAT you believe that is important...or...is it HOW?

by Terry in

overheard:.

"is your cup half full or half empty?".

"well, depends on whether you just poured something out or poured something in.".

myelaine

dear JamesThomas...

you said: "We then enter into the deep unspeakable sense of the question of “Who am I”; totally naked and bare of everything. We are a blank slate. A void. Empty. Nothing to hinder, nothing to filter, nothing to taint, the pure light of Truth to enter and so be seen and known."...

BUT, this is your "truth"..."What does matter, amounts to one thing: how we treat each-other and all life and planet."...

WHAT if that input deprivation brings out the worst, unspeakable, "Who am I"...who's to call that wrong?...not you?...because..."The preface is that the paramount truth, the wisdom and knowing that we seek -- is present, here, now. What good is a “truth”, if it is absent? For truth to be truth it must be valid, alive and undeniable when embraced and beheld."

love michelle

63

The "Flood" in Noah's day--why wasn't that Armageddon enough?

by Terry in

the great day of god the almighty certainly is a fit description for the destruction of men, women, children, grandmothers, infants and puppy dogs in the days of noah.. why didn't destroying everybody on earth except a remnant of 8 count as armageddon?.

i mean, if you are starting all over by genocide--shouldn't it count for more than bad temper?.

what are we missing?.

myelaine

thank you return of parakeet...

I know. Cold Steel and I have had previous "pm" discussions.

Our Christmas card exchange encouraged further discussion as well.

love michelle

63

The "Flood" in Noah's day--why wasn't that Armageddon enough?

by Terry in

the great day of god the almighty certainly is a fit description for the destruction of men, women, children, grandmothers, infants and puppy dogs in the days of noah.. why didn't destroying everybody on earth except a remnant of 8 count as armageddon?.

i mean, if you are starting all over by genocide--shouldn't it count for more than bad temper?.

what are we missing?.

myelaine

dear Cold Steel...

who were the sons of God in this scripture, job 38:4-7?

regarding the "sons of God" spoken of in the flood narrative...and in jude 6 these same ones are called angels:

The spiritual bodies of the fallen angels are "material" they needed to be confined under great weight where they do not R.I.P. "...bind them for seventy generations underneath the earth: (1 enoch 10:15)..."judgement has been passed upon you: your request will not be granted you. From this time forward, never shall you ascend into heaven; He[the Lord, the Mighty One] has said, that on earth He will bind you, as long as the world endures. 1 enoch 14:3-4

the spiritual beings (fallen angels) in the OT were able to co-habitate with women and have children by them...a spirit/ghost can't do that. They are portrayed as going against Gods will not their "abilities"...Wherefore have you forsaken the lofty and holy heaven, which endures for ever,, and have lain with women; have defiled yourselves with the daughters of men; have taken to yourselves wives; have acted like the sons of the earth, and have begotten an impious offspring? "You being spiritual, holy, and possessing a life which is eternal, have polluted youselves with women, have begotten in carnal blood; have lusted in the blood of men; and have done as those who are flesh and blood do. These however die and perish. 1 enoch 15:2-4.

love michelle

47

Is the U.S. headed toward financial ruin? Your opinions please....

by tresdecu in

jw
friends

not trying to sound like a conpiracy nut...but just read this article:.

http://www.moneynews.com/archives/trump-aftershock-american-economy/2012/11/06/id/462985?promo_code=103fc-1.

is this just a lot of talk?

myelaine

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MkAn3VIe1yQ