Douglas Adams theorized in one of his books (one of the Dirk ones, I think) about the "Electric Monk". This was a device designed exclusively to believe things for you. The latest models could hold twenty contradictory doctrines in active memory at the same time. When faced with a new belief, one monk called it "The Way", intentionally using capital letters. (Adams was an atheist)
AlmostAtheist
JoinedPosts by AlmostAtheist
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15
how we get trapped!
by the mole inmy dad and i spoke over lunch the other day about our religion.
he told me that he bumped into two of my cousins who are pioneers at the auburn congregation..he told them he was disapointed and was not invited to their party...after he told me his conversation with them he repeatedly kept on saying "the truth".
i finally corrected him and told him that was one of the ways to suppress him buy using words like that to inflict guilt and that there is no other truth when there is.
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Does anyone know how prayer is supposed to work?
by onintwo inis god so (pick one) blind, dumb, arrogant, confused, uninterested...that he needs to actually hear people beseech him for help before he'll actually do anything to help?.
or how about when people group together and all pray for one thing?
is it kind of like a barn raising?
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AlmostAtheist
Actually, prayer is one of the things that turned me on to the idea that the Bible had to be a joke. It's very big into the idea that prayer for others is effective, even saying, "The prayers of a righteous man when at work have much force." I always thought that was cool until one day it dawned on me that -- exactly as the poster suggested initially -- it is essentially a democratic process. When enough people pray for it, God will do it. Huh? Does that make sense?
Prayer for yourself and your own needs at least makes sense, except that it never actually accomplished anything. One item I enjoyed from Dan Barker's 'Losing Faith in Faith' book was a bit about a huge auto accident. One family "miraculously" survived unharmed, attributing it to the prayer they said before their trip. Dan pointed out that if they hadn't prayed, they would've been a mile further up the road and unaffected by the accident in the first place!
You've gotta be a blind nut to think God physically protects people from calamity, and though Witnesses officially teach that 'unforseen occurrences befall them all', they still pray at meetings that God protect them on their trip home. Oddly, some still die in wrecks. Probably the weak ones.
(Sorry, feeling a little cynical tonight)
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The Judicial Committee
by minimus inhave you ever been called before one?
were you ever on one?
what happened???
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AlmostAtheist
I was before a judicial committee, but I *knew* I was going to be DF'd because I was unrepentant. The committee tried very hard to give me a way out, 'maybe you'll see things differently given time', 'I *know* you, you're not like this', stuff like that. It obviously pained and upset them to conclude that they needed to DF me. I felt I was being dealt with very fairly and reasonably. I was DF'd.
Then I changed my mind. :-)
And it seemed then that they flopped to the other side. Now they were resistant to let me back in. I cried the tears of a broken person, I was the prodigal son, but instead of giving me a robe and gold rings, they said, 'Let's give it a few months.' They quoted the OM book where it says it may take 'several months, a year, or even longer' before a person could be accepted back. It tore my heart out. I couldn't accept that Jehovah was torturing me this way. Then one of the committee members pointed out that it isn't Jehovah. He may well have accepted me back already. It was the imperfect men that had only their experience and knowledge to draw on for direction. (So much for the holy spirit argument!) That was a hellish period of my life that I would never choose to live again. From the time I wrote my first letter to the committee to the time I was reinstated was five months, making mine a very fast reinstatement. I don't know how people who are trying for over a year keep any semblence of 'self' about them. I found the whole process extremely crushing. I cried nearly every day, and at every meeting.
Essentially it taught me that the organization is geared toward helping you stay in if you're in, and keeping you out if you're out. It's much easier to keep from getting DF'd in the first place than to get reinstated later.
And of course, once you're reinstated, you're still under "restrictions", eased over many months and more hearings. You bear the badge of disfellowshipping for a long, long time.
-Dave
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From JW to Atheist; Now, how do I face my family?
by AlmostAtheist inhey gang,.
i've read dozens of threads here, some sounding similar to what i'm writing now.
i can't help it, i want to talk about it.
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AlmostAtheist
Good point, Gary. I've never been presented with proof of the non-existence of a deity. I've seen many definitions of atheist and agnostic (just like "saved" and "born-again") and I'm sure I don't fit all the definitions.
I could buy that there's a disinterested deity sooner than I could buy a loving one. A loving one would have to do something about all the suffering. But a disinterested one could see it all as a lab experiment, like when we blind rats to see if they can still work the maze. I don't think I've ever seen proof of such a deity, but it wouldn't shatter me if I found out it was true.
As an agnostic, do you feel like there is a deity of some kind, you just don't know the kind? Or are you unsure a deity exists at all?
-Dave
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From Christian Science to Mormon to Pentecostal to JW??
by Storm on Horizon inin the early part of my childhood, i was raised in the christian science church, after which began attending the church of religious science.
when i was 15, i joined the lds (mormon)church.
i left the lds church at 18 years old, had a "born again" experience, joined a fanatical charismatic church, and then went to bible college to study ministry.
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AlmostAtheist
Hey Storm,
I was (am, I guess, depending on who you talk to) a JW for 15 years. It isn't the worst life you could choose to live, but you could find better I'm sure. It's almost like being in a club where everybody agrees to like everybody else, or at least act like it. It sounds nice, but it starts to feel very plastic after awhile. And of course, not everybody can maintain the facade, so there are hurt feelings. And guilt, because you know you SHOULD like this idiot, but you just can't.
If the Bible were God's word, then the JW's would have my vote for Most Likely To Have It Right. Not all on this board wold agree with that, of course, and that's ok. It's a little like arguing over who best understands The Lord of the Rings. In the end, nobody can really be "right" and it doesn't matter anyway.
I found it very enlightening to consider the possibility of a universe without a God. Though Dawkins is as evangelical as any Bible-thumper, I enjoyed his book "The Blind Watchmaker". It really showed the power and reasonableness of evolution by natural selection. I never bought it before, as viewed through the Watchtower lens. But after reading Dawkins book, really pondering the whole deal, and digging around on the Internet, I have to say I buy it. And it makes so much sense, it's much more fulfilling an answer than looking to a deity.
Of course, you're not going to get the whole answer of JW's here. Neither will you get it from JW's. I wish you well in your research!
-Dave
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From JW to Atheist; Now, how do I face my family?
by AlmostAtheist inhey gang,.
i've read dozens of threads here, some sounding similar to what i'm writing now.
i can't help it, i want to talk about it.
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AlmostAtheist
Pat,
I enjoy the freedom of live and let live, too. It feels so good not to have everybody's 'eternal life' hanging in the balance every time I open my mouth, or fail to. I remember when I first started studying, I told my atheist father that it gave me a moral compass. He told me then, "I hope some day you can have the morals without the religion." Wow. When I can finally tell my wife, then I'll tell him. (My mom attends a church of christ, neither of my parents ever took to [I almost wrote 'the truth' -- funny] jw's)
-Dave
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From JW to Atheist; Now, how do I face my family?
by AlmostAtheist inhey gang,.
i've read dozens of threads here, some sounding similar to what i'm writing now.
i can't help it, i want to talk about it.
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AlmostAtheist
Hey Pole,
Yow, thanks for that excellent 'fading' thread! That was some great stuff. We lucked out and changed congregations recently, and lucked out further in that we don't actually live in the territory of that congregation. With the pregnancy, we haven't attended in months, and we've never gone out in service from there. So our fade could come quickly, if she'll join me.
-Dave
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From JW to Atheist; Now, how do I face my family?
by AlmostAtheist inhey gang,.
i've read dozens of threads here, some sounding similar to what i'm writing now.
i can't help it, i want to talk about it.
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AlmostAtheist
Hey Robyn,
>> Which do you think will be worse for your wife: The fact that you are now an agnostic/teetering atheist or the fact that you are leaving the witnesses?
You raise an interesting question. I think she will have strong internal opposition to the idea of there not being any deity. She's an artist, loves nature, and has often scoffed at the idea of evolution. Of course, so did I, so who knows? I don't know how she'll react, I really just don't.
Externally, though, she will surely have mucho trouble with the idea of being married to a non-Witness. I was DF'd once, and she spent months married to a DF'd person, though a "repentant" one. She didn't enjoy that and told me as much. I'm sure she'd enjoy even less being married to an "apostate". Hopefully, she'll at least leave the organization with me. Then we can do it more or less quietly, and not alienate her parents and family. The only sweating point on that score is the kids. "Gramma, why do you still go to the Kingdom Hall? Don't you know Jehovah is a myth?" Yeah, THAT would be fun to explain!
Good to meet you all. Thanks for the useful comments!
-Dave
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From JW to Atheist; Now, how do I face my family?
by AlmostAtheist inhey gang,.
i've read dozens of threads here, some sounding similar to what i'm writing now.
i can't help it, i want to talk about it.
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AlmostAtheist
Hey Elsewhere (presumably not Saint Elsewhere),
>> A great book that I read is: Losing Faith in Faith: From Preacher to Atheist
I just finished that book. It wasn't bad, but have you noticed how people like Dan Barker (essentially evangelical atheists) seem to push too hard? He seems very proud of himself that he can debate theologians into a corner over the definition of 'spirit' and how the Bible contradicts itself because in one place it says 'a man' and in another place it says 'two men'. It put me off, since he seemed willing to bend the truth to make his point, just like a Bible-thumper. It's not convincing. I remember when I read the Creator book, from the Society. I was reading it with a critical eye because I wanted to glean out of it material I could use to witness to an atheist. But I found that the material was really only compelling if you already believed it. Looking at it critically, it had very little to say that would convince an unbeliever. Barker's work was like the opposite of that, he said little that would have caught my eye and made me think if I hadn't already been so inclined.
Maybe he's too far removed from the time when he was still waffling between believing and not believing. Maybe in a dozen years, I'll be saying the same things!
I don't think I'll be penning any letters and mailing them to any and everybody like Barker did. Chances are very good I'll just quietly fade into the background, then pop back up for an occassional family visit. I hope so! I'd rather avoid being officially DF'd, if I can.
-Dave
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From JW to Atheist; Now, how do I face my family?
by AlmostAtheist inhey gang,.
i've read dozens of threads here, some sounding similar to what i'm writing now.
i can't help it, i want to talk about it.
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AlmostAtheist
Hey Gang,
I've read dozens of threads here, some sounding similar to what I'm writing now. I can't help it, I want to talk about it. And I'm hoping you guys can help me avoid some mistakes and maybe make the transition a little easier.
I'm 34, been baptized since I was 17. My wife of 13 years is expecting our second child. My son is 6. My parents are not and never have been JW's. Her family are all JW's, "strong", but extremely superficial. My wife knows it and doesn't think much of them. My wife has often questioned the Society and even the Bible during our marriage. I was always the one trying to work up explanations (excuses) for it all, but recently I've hit a wall and come to the conclusion that the Bible is just a book and there simply is no God. Not that I have iron-clad proof he doesn't exist, just that it seems unlikely and I don't have any reasonable proof that he *does* exist. (If anyone's interested in the 'wall', I will happily relate all that.)
So, how do I tell my wife? She's days (hours?) away from giving birth, so clearly this will wait for a few weeks or even a month or two until the baby's born and things settle down a bit. She'll want to show the baby off at the Hall, so there will be a few meetings associated with that. I can smile and be nice, bow my head, the whole routine. No problem. For now.
But I need to tell her the truth. I was able to wrangle a hiatus from the meetings since she's pregnant and we have so much to do around the house. So we haven't been to the meetings in a month or two. I have been dropping little "have you ever wondered..." hints here and there, but nothing major.
Some of you have had to have this talk with your spouse, how did you handle it? There's no huge rush here, but I do feel some pressure from the fact that I now believe this is the only life we get. I don't want to waste any more precious time 'playing along' and I want to start deprogramming my six-year-old. Of course, that's going to be tricky if my wife decides to dig in her heels and remain in the organization.
Your advice, help, and experiences are appreciated!
-Dave