The text says something about a "demon hand" -- is that a reference to the hand holding the second scepter from the left? It does have a yucky appearance, but I think that's because of the artist's attempt to show the motion of the Jesus character's arm.
The face of Jesus is spooky enough! Dig those hollow, fiery eyes! *shudder*
Sorry man, not seeing anything untoward in this pic.
Dave
"xeno" is a common taxonomical designation for aliens (strangers) including extraterrestrials.. are you someone who lacks belief in intelligent extraterrestrial beings?
do you believe it is possible that such extraterrestrial beings exist?
do you think it is possible or likely that our planet has had interactions with extraterrestrials?.
>>How many of YOU are there in the Universe? You are completely unique.
You're not the first person to tell me this. ;-)
>>What is the liklihood that another one of YOU will be born on Earth or anywhere else?
We're back to the question of unique, and to what extent it applies to the question of life. For instance, I am unique, but there aren't many unique things about me. Just because I'm unique doesn't mean another human male couldn't fill most if not all of the roles I've played.
Likewise, another planet with similar conditions to our own might be able to spark life, just as ours did. The question isn't about uniqueness in general, but what specifically about the earth allowed life to form. Since we don't know whether or not it even DID form here, it does get a bit fuzzy. It certainly can't be spoken of in absolutes.
Starting from the presupposition that life started here -- with only the "well, how else did it get here?" idea as "evidence" -- I am left with the conclusion that it likely could happen elsewhere.
I haven't been able to get yet where you stand on this. Do you feel that there is a great likelihood that earth is unique in the universe in supporting life? Or that there is too little information on which to base a statement of likelihood? Or some third option?
Dave
"xeno" is a common taxonomical designation for aliens (strangers) including extraterrestrials.. are you someone who lacks belief in intelligent extraterrestrial beings?
do you believe it is possible that such extraterrestrial beings exist?
do you think it is possible or likely that our planet has had interactions with extraterrestrials?.
Hey Terry,
>>There is only one Earth with exactly what Earth has or had at a particular time in a particular way.
What's your basis for that statement? And how are you defining "unique"? For instance, I could draw a scribble on a piece of paper and it could be totally unique in the universe. But it could also be considered just another scribble.
I'd grant that earth is unique in the same sense as my scribble. But is it unique in ways that matter for forming life? If you're arguing that we can't know whether it is or it isn't, then I agree with you.
>>The fact that there are billions of similar (not identical) planets is not enough.
If you found a coin that you'd never seen before, would you assume it was the only one on the planet? If you decided to test your assumption, would you consider it sufficient to scour a 10-foot square patch of land? The fact that we haven't found life anywhere else we've looked is meaningless, since we've only looked in a few places, and our ability to look there is still pretty weak.
>>If the Earth were closer or farther from our Sun there could be no life. Our placement is unique.
I seriously doubt this one. Life exists on our planet in all sorts of temperatures and environments. I wouldn't venture a guess on how far it could be shifted and life still be viable, but there is certainly a range.
>>The difference between the POTENTIAL for life elsewhere has nothing to do with the ACTUAL probability of life happening.
I'm not sure I can agree with this. If the potential is there, doesn't it automatically raise the probability? Having potential raises it from impossible, to possible. However the underlying question is "Does the potential exist?" and without knowledge of how life arose spontaneously (if it did at all), we can't say with certainty that the potential exists.
Dave
"xeno" is a common taxonomical designation for aliens (strangers) including extraterrestrials.. are you someone who lacks belief in intelligent extraterrestrial beings?
do you believe it is possible that such extraterrestrial beings exist?
do you think it is possible or likely that our planet has had interactions with extraterrestrials?.
>>I'm sure this makes sense to you somehow.
Never a safe assumption. ;-)
>> "Why is there something rather than nothing" in the universe? Is it just as likely that there could nothing? Or is it less likely?
Hmmmm... I don't think I have enough information to venture a guess on this one. I don't have anything to base the odds on.
>>For life to exist there has to be the probability in some measure for it not to exist. Otherwise, it inevitably exists as a certainty.
We'd agree that there's no certainty about life, wouldn't we? Earth has it, the moon doesn't. (Or if the moon does, I'm sure we can find some rock somewhere that doesn't.) I don't think I get the point of what you're saying here.
>>It isn't really PROBABLE that life exists other than us. Not based on the raw uniqueness of our origins.
Are you saying it's IMPROBABLE, or just that there's not enough information to call it probable?
When you say "raw uniqueness", what do you mean?
Dave
hello friends its me, mutualrespectplease.
i messed up my earlier registration, so now i am mrp2.
i have been doing a bunch of research on the different responses i got from you regarding my posts from the beginning of august.
>>But what is the motive of using a swimming pool compared with the motive of pursuing religious freedoms?
You and I can speak about motives because we're driven by reason, and we apply reasonable standards to ourselves and our friends. We don't pretend the world is black and white/good and bad/us and them.
The Watchtower doesn't see things that way. They don't allow a person's motive to be a factor.
"Did you join the YMCA, Brother?"
"Yes, but only to use the swimm--"
"That's all we needed to know. Why you joined isn't an issue."
An interesting question: What was their motive in not telling the rank-and-file Witnesses about it? Most know nothing about it, and the few that do think it's an apostate lie. Even when shown documentation from the UN's own website (which still exists), they continue to believe it's a lie. What possible motive could the Watchtower have for hiding this from their followers, particularly if it was in the name of 'pursuing religious freedom'?
Dave
hello friends its me, mutualrespectplease.
i messed up my earlier registration, so now i am mrp2.
i have been doing a bunch of research on the different responses i got from you regarding my posts from the beginning of august.
I think the primary thing that smacks me on this one is the fact that if your average JW joined the YMCA to use the swimming pool, he would be disfellowshipped. But if the Watchtower registers with the UN's Department of Public Information in order to get a library card, they get off without so much as a "we're sorry, we screwed up".
It's not that there's no legitimate reason for doing it (I'm not arguing that one way or the other), it's the double-standard in dealing with it.
Dave
last night megan was having what appeared to be labour again, so while i was upstairs megans mum said 'are you sure you want karl in the labour room with you, i can be there' just because she wants her to get the experience.
fortunately for her i was told about this while i was out because i'd of seriously lost it, i was angry but mostly hurt and upset.
wtf is that all about?
>>are you sure you want karl in the labour room with you, i can be there
Wow, no wonder you were upset!
Seriously though Man, people will be whoever they are. No amount of you flying off the handle will ever make her better. You rise above it and let her make an ass of herself -- no one will question who holds the high ground.
Hang in there!
Dave
i came here expecting to find a range of jw's and check out their beliefs and thinking.
however, what i find is largely disaffected or ex jw's and atheists etc.
with hindsight i am not that surprised either!
>>Have they got a verse for that?!
"Bad associations spoils useful habits". (Only "bad" folks hang out on the internet)
"Buy out the opportune time for yourselves, for the days are wicked." (Why waste time online when you could be studying for the next meeting?)
Lot's more, but you get the idea. Any scripture can be used to forbid anything, so long as you let the person reading it to you do the interpretation.
Dave
minister amos said .
>>oh and brother and sister co. don't eat such and such food.<< .
brother co would send us a letter about a month in advance stating his dietary requirements and what sort of accomodations he would prefer.
>>I remember the PO's wife being allergic to all smells. We could not use hairspay, deorderant or perfume the week of their visit.
I think this sort of allergy isn't all that rare, but I knew two CO's wives that this was attributed to. And yours makes 3. One wonders where the allergy ends and the convenient excuse to not listen to the same damn talk AGAIN begins.
I don't know if they all do this, but one CO told me that he reworks his talks and mixes things up a bit at every congregation, specifically so his wife doesn't get bored. I always admired that about him. (Gary Carey, you're a good guy! I hope you're out of the org by now!)
Dave
"xeno" is a common taxonomical designation for aliens (strangers) including extraterrestrials.. are you someone who lacks belief in intelligent extraterrestrial beings?
do you believe it is possible that such extraterrestrial beings exist?
do you think it is possible or likely that our planet has had interactions with extraterrestrials?.
>>I, personally, can't figure out why it seem likely to people that billions of planets mean a greater liklihood of life. I mean, I understand the argument, but; it doesn't offer much of a persuasive appeal to me.
There are 6 billion people on the planet. How often have you had something happen to you that you thought was so extraordinary and unique, it couldn't possibly have happened before? Only to tell the tale and find that someone you KNOW has experienced it too? Let alone if you polled the entire population.
Circumstances -- even seemingly unique ones -- are built from a finite set of variables. That the "spark of life" would only have ever lit here and nowhere else seems vanishingly unlikely to me.
I'm approaching this from the standpoint of having virtually no idea what that "spark of life" was, so in the end perhaps it really and truly was a singularly unique event. But I wouldn't bet money on it.
In answer to AuldSoul's questions;
Yes, I think they probably exist. (No proof, but if I had to bet...)
No, I don't think we've been visited. (The universe is so big and so young, how would they have found us?)
I don't see my view as a "belief" per se, but a playing of the odds as I understand them. It could be argued that I can't really know the odds, since I don't know the game. True, but I have a decent idea of the number of variables, and they aren't that many in comparison to the size of the universe.
Dave
