"for the wages sin pays is death, but the gift god gives is everlasting life?".
rom 6:23.
for years we been taught that we die because of sin and once you die you have paid your "debt" .
I always rationalized this died-but-had-to-die-again-anyway thing by figuring the poor fools managed to sin again at some point along the way -- being sinful, imperfect humans by nature -- and so still warranted death.
I probably also had some rationalizations about Noah, but I don't recall them at the moment... :-)
i thought the url posted beneath this article was an interesting response from the christian perspective to the question asked:at the outset god made this into a life-and-death situation.
god staked the entire future of mankind on this one event.
we lost.
I reached my limit of reading 6-syllable words for the day after about 20% of his text, and unfortunately he hadn't quite made his way around to explaining much of anything yet. I did read his 17 points of missing data from Genesis chapter 3, without which he claims we can't really say WHAT happened.
Does this guy buy the Bible? He seems to, but only enough to get him aloft, then he seems to soar pretty well under his own power.
I also found his remarks (the parenthetical ones [hidden inside multiple {nested} braces]) a bit difficult to follow.
Especially in view of his upfront admission that reading his whole thesis would still leave the question wholly unanswered, I don't think I'll be going back for round two. It's this sort of stuff that makes me want to delete the "Almost" from my handle!
Dave
i haven't posted for a while.
i'm starting to really lose my cool.
i'm angry all the time, it seems at everyone.
Chris,
You are a raw nerve right now, everyone here knows that and will give you all the space you need. Scream your head off in here, no one minds and many listen. And as mentioned, many have screamed before you and will understand. Gina and I have been there, we understand.
You've heard from those that divorced, and those that decided to stick it out. Both are good resources for you.
Remember how much else you're going through. On top of everything, wouldn't you just have to have construction going on in your house right now! And car trouble! This is the sort of time where you can have trouble opening a chip bag and tear somebody's head off over it.
So it's important to back away from it for awhile. Give yourself a few months. Let it all wash over you. Whatever Colin says, just let it pass. For awhile. Think of yourself as slogging through a muddy field in a rainstorm. It's so gloomy and awful, you can't allow yourself to think about that college degree you never quite finished, or that kid in high school you should have told off. You've got to focus and just get through the storm. Put one foot in front of the other. Get to the shelter.
After a few months, the rainstorm will have passed in your life. Then you can more rationally consider the course of the rest of your life. This is not the time to even talk about divorce, you need to get yourself to where you know who you are again, not the you as modified by all the extra stressors in your life.
When I was 15 I wrote in my diary, "Never make a life-changing decision when you're happy, sad, tired or drunk." Oh how I wish I'd followed my own advice throughout my life...
Dave
tonight my sister told me our dad had mentioned that when you do not associate yourself with a disfellowshipped person, relative or not, you are honoring god and following the bible's guidlines.
i asked my sister if she knew where in the bible it states that.
she said she did not know, but knows that its in there, and knows that it relates something to that affect.
Thanks Balsam, that's just what I was looking for!
But if that's what the manual says, then why are so many "close relatives" being shunned?
Dave
tonight my sister told me our dad had mentioned that when you do not associate yourself with a disfellowshipped person, relative or not, you are honoring god and following the bible's guidlines.
i asked my sister if she knew where in the bible it states that.
she said she did not know, but knows that its in there, and knows that it relates something to that affect.
I understand the Elders manual says that family will not be disfellowshipped for communicating with disfellowshipped ones. For instance the Elders told my ex-husband he can have contact with our disfellowshipped oldest son, so long as it is not of a spiritual nature.
Is this for real? If so, that would be awesome, Gina might not have to lose access to her parents. Do you know where this has been published?
I flipped through the elders manual sections under 'kicking people out' and didn't see anything.
Thanks for your help!
Dave
tonight my sister told me our dad had mentioned that when you do not associate yourself with a disfellowshipped person, relative or not, you are honoring god and following the bible's guidlines.
i asked my sister if she knew where in the bible it states that.
she said she did not know, but knows that its in there, and knows that it relates something to that affect.
When I was still in the organization I did some truly awful things and was deservedly disfellowshipped. I was a threat to the spiritual health of anyone I spoke to, so shunning actually made some sense then. But just like I snapped and started acting out, I one day woke up and realized how off the mark I was and started seeking forgiveness from those I'd hurt, including the congregation, via the judicial committee. They met with me, read me the "several months, a year, or even longer" time-frame suggested by the OM book for keeping DF'd people out, and encouraged me to show my repentence by attending every meeting.
Of course, I was overwhelmed with guilt, so I was happy to be told what to do in order to get myself "back with Jehovah". As the weeks passed, though, I couldn't help but notice that 1Cor 5:11 said to 'quit mixing in company with' people that ARE fornicators, idolators, etc, etc. Not that HAVE BEEN such, but that currently ARE. Since I'd stopped all my sinful practices, I couldn't understand why the shunning couldn't immediately be lifted. I was never given a scriptural answer to that, but I was fully indoctrinated at the time, so I'm sure I accepted whatever lame excuse they offered for it.
Personally, I think the Bible supports the shunning concept, but that when the immoral person stops doing the immoral thing, it ought to stop. The prodigal son in Jesus own illustration wasn't told to wait "several months, a year, or even longer" before his father would accept him back.
As for DF'ing over "apostasy" (i.e., believing something different than JW's), I think they use 2John1:10,11 where John warns that if someone comes to you and doesn't bear "this teaching" (the teaching of the Christ, see earlier verses) then you shouldn't have him in your home, or say a greeting to him. To do so is to "share in his wicked works". I doubt John was referring to the whole body of doctrine currently taught by the Watchtower ( ), but that's the way the JW's apply it. Verse 7 specifically warns about people that don't teach Christ came in the flesh, this is clearly a narrow warning against those that would teach against Jesus as the Christ. But of course they abuse it.
I should probably add that I don't think outright "shunning" is appropriate ever. I can't imagine what it would take to make me act uncivilly toward a group of people. Perhaps a single individual of my own choosing, but never a "class" of people. I do think the Bible supports that concept, but I don't believe the Bible is inspired.
Dave
1. avoid riding in automobiles
because they are responsible for
20% of all fatal accidents.
My wife and I used to run an email/newsletter thing for Witnesses, publishing whatever submissions we received from the members. This sort of thing was very common. They find something on the internet that says "church" or "pastor", change it to "kingdom hall" or "elder" and send it in. Sometimes they hadn't even bothered to read the whole thing themselves, as shown by the odd "cross" or "hell" reference.
A google search on some phrases from this piece show it all over the place with "church" instead of "kingdom hall". And one says "strip club"!
Dave
at least i think it might be a ghost .
here is the story: hub and i went to bowness on windermere for a holiday last week.
we had a great time.
I can't honestly say I see anything either, Sirona, but it's intriguing, isn't it?
Do you live close enough to go back? Perhaps you could return and "invite" whatever it was to try to communciate with you. It's a little arrogant on my part to assume it, but I assume if it allowed you to see it, it would probably be willing to communicate with you. Even if only to say, "Please leave me alone."
If you can establish a communication with it, The Amazing Randi will pay you a million dollars. That alone would be worth the bother of trying once. As long as it's not a 6-hour drive or something.
Dave
.
we were watching a couple of our grandkids today and emily was having fun as we raked leaves.
she is fun to watch as she plays in the yard.. ken p.
Referring to this story, perhaps:
http://www1.whdh.com/news/articles/local/B59160/
(child hiding in leaves run over by her father)
It was actually a hard story to find, I'm not surprised you hadn't heard of it. I DO follow the news pretty closely and I hadn't heard of it.
Dave
the theme text for jehovah's witnesses this year is, "keep on the watch...prove yourselves ready.
" (matthew 24:42, 44) .
and what a year it has been for the watchtower bible & tract society.
Another ill-fated attempt to persuade the dubs that all is well in La La land.
Jer 6:14 - "They try to heal the breakdown of my people lightly,saying, 'There is peace, there is peace!' when there is no peace."
