Posts by ChrisCross

14

Question from Newbie Chris Cross, JW accounting & money trail

by horrible life in

this was on another thread.

since that thread died a slow death, i thought this question from this newbie, needed to be answered.

i have an extra topic to give away.

ChrisCross

First I would like to thank everybody for replying. There is a lot of great information here. Due to my schedule I haven't had a time to reply until now...and still it will be kind of short. Is it made clear to a rank and file what money donations are done within the congregation? I am really interested in the msnbc story posted by Billy the Ex-Bethelite and I really think the question of where did the money come from for the pedophile lawsuits is important. Is it safe to assume that all money gathered by the WTS is ALL donations? If so, does every rank-and-file member feel that monies paid out for court cases such as this is kosher? Would a case such as the pedophiles mentioned in the news story contradict, in any way, any money policies set by the organization?

43

What is the HIDDEN purpose of the Watchtower corporation?

by Terry in

why does the average man or woman on the street only have a vague awareness of who jehovah's witnesses are and what they stand for?

isn't it weird they know next to nothing after over a hundred years of door to door work???.

ask yourself why this has been such an ineffective ministry.. one actor, tom cruise, has raised more awareness about his own religion (scientology) than all the watchtower magazines placed at a million households.

ChrisCross

I'm new to the forums. I have been arguing/debating with a JW at work now for about 6 years. Well, the latest topic of discussion was that of which this thread is about. My JW friend came to me and said, "the problem with all religions in the world is the collection of money. When people are involved, greed is usually involved and that is when you see church leaders living lavishly with 20 cars and a mansion." Of course, my repsonse was, "I take it by all religions you are excluding the Jehovah Witnesses?" I proceeded to ask him how many witnesses there are in the world and then how many currently reside in the US? He tells me about one million JW's live in the US and I proceeded to tell him that it is foolhardy to think that out of 1 million people in a religion that does accept "donations" that there is no foul-play involved whatsover. So he proceeds to tell me that the JW organization has a system of checks and balances from each kingdom hall all the way up to the top (the money trail) and that no foul play can be found. He continues to tell me that any average JW can confirm this. Actually, I assume this implicitly from the conversation that he has no reason to have any suspicion of foul play. Since of course I am the one who decided to take on the task of confirming this, I found this thread and find it very compelling but lacking any credible evidence. Is there anyway to obtain any bookeeping copies of JW accounting? I'm pretty sure this is a resounding no. I am left to constructing an argument based on, at the very least, compelling evidence which I'm sure will fall to deaf ears once I explain my findings to my JW friend.

So the questions I have are 1) has there been any reported incideneces of ANY jehovahs witnesses living off of donated funds for which there is evidence. I assume that any JW working in a facility does not have any other job and that of which is volunteer help for the Watchtower. So it seem to me if someone was found driving an extravagant car, eating at fancy restaurants, etc, can be used as evidence, 2) What are some hard figures on how much it costs to support a door to door ministry as opposed to having a dedictated TV station or airing over the internet or even mail correspondance? The real point I'm after here is the assertion that is made in the Jehovah's (Hidden) Message Revealed. Is it really cheaper to do the afforementioned types of ministry over door to door? 3) Has anybody done similar research for which they can provide reference material for? I would be really interested in this.

5

God's inspired word?

by ChrisCross in

what are the passages in the bible that say it is god's inspired word?

ChrisCross

That's really the point I'm trying to get at. The bible was put together by man. Who's to have a final say in what is and what isn't a part of the bible. Also, what exactly does inspired mean? Man may have been inspired by God to write good words about him, but does that make it infallible?

5

God's inspired word?

by ChrisCross in

what are the passages in the bible that say it is god's inspired word?

ChrisCross

What are the passages in the bible that say it is God's inspired word?

12

Should you believe in the trinity? Is Jesus Christ God Almighty?

by ChrisCross in

was there ever a refutation written up on this brochure?

i'm looking for something that examines all the sources and the credibility of the people they quote to supplement my research on this topic.

ChrisCross

Again, thank you everyone for your input.

I've been having conversations with the JW for 4 years now. The first 2 years were him indoctrinating me, the past 2 years have been discussions, debates, and heated arguments with the JW I work with. I actually came upon this website 2 years ago. When I first discovered the watchtower was a cult, I read anything and everything about them, including almost every single article on freeminds.org and read, but never posted, a lot of the threads on this message board. The research first began to make sure that the watchtower really wasn't the 'one true religion'. From what I understand, the heavy research is a characteristic of those who have doubts and start to fall away from the organization. Now, I just skim over information that is relevant to the discussion the JW and I have.

So yes, I have been lurking here for a while :)

12

Should you believe in the trinity? Is Jesus Christ God Almighty?

by ChrisCross in

was there ever a refutation written up on this brochure?

i'm looking for something that examines all the sources and the credibility of the people they quote to supplement my research on this topic.

ChrisCross

In response to ellderwho, I think if this doesn't work I'm through. To make a long story short, I was never a JW but I was right on the threshold of becoming one. The JW I know is actually one I work with. When I first started where I work, I was 18, adn the JW took it upon himself to impress his religion upon me. He really had an easy job, not only was I not familiar with any religion, philosophy, etc., I was not a very good debater. After about 2 years, I finally broke down and thought to myself that this has to be the true religion. He had the answer to everything. He got excited when I told him I wanted to go to one of his meetings and begin my faith in his religion. I don't know what it was, extreme luck, divine intervention, but the night before the meeting, I was trying to find some material I could study about the JW's and low and behold, my search criteria in Yahoo! led me to an 'ex-jehovah witness' site. After that, the rest is history.

Now for the past 2 years, my goal, since I don't have any religious affiliation, is to get him to see that I was not cooerced by the devil to leave his religion. I do this because I feel he needs to know the truth of why I fell so quickly from his faith. Up to this point I have tried everything. I have read just about everything I could get my hands on. I have also realized that the witness I am talking to is in the category of 'true believer' and really, anything I say to him just goes in one ear and out the other. I'm convinced though, that showing the dishonesty of the watchtower is now the best approach and is the reason why I need this material on the brochure.

Thanks everyone again for providing all the information, books, and links. If tehre is anything else out there, please don't hesitate to post it.

Chris

12

Should you believe in the trinity? Is Jesus Christ God Almighty?

by ChrisCross in

was there ever a refutation written up on this brochure?

i'm looking for something that examines all the sources and the credibility of the people they quote to supplement my research on this topic.

ChrisCross

Oh my goodness! This is exactly the kind of material I was looking for. Thanks a billion :)

If anybody has some more refutations on this particular brochure, feel free to post them.

12

Should you believe in the trinity? Is Jesus Christ God Almighty?

by ChrisCross in

was there ever a refutation written up on this brochure?

i'm looking for something that examines all the sources and the credibility of the people they quote to supplement my research on this topic.

ChrisCross

Was there ever a refutation written up on this brochure? I'm looking for something that examines all the sources and the credibility of the people they quote to supplement my research on this topic.

24

Without Evil, there cannot be Good...

by ohiocowboy in

most of us have heard the above expression, and when one thinks about it, the statement is undeniably true...without evil, there cannot be good-and vice-versa.. consider this, after the 1,000 years in paradise, once satan is set free for a short time to try to cause havoc, and is then completely done away with, what would "paradise" be like then?

since there would supposedly no longer be any evil, how would the perfect utopian society claim to be good?

you can't have one without the other.. would the people become emotionless, brain-dead, robotified zombies?

ChrisCross

I'd have to agree about opposites. If one didn't exist you wouldn't know the other. You couldn't go west if you couldn't go east. You couldn't wake up if you never slept. You wouldn't know what death was unless you were alive. I think in the end, when it all comes down to it, imperfection is perfection and whatever transcendent being is out there, this is how it intended the world to be.

2

Have these aguments ever worked?

by ChrisCross in

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this is my first post and i really have a lot to say about my experience with a jw but first and foremost: i was wondering if anyone has posed an argument to a jw, specifically the irrefutable argument that the wt was supporting the un, that led them question their faith in the organization?

i know that going toe to toe with a jw is largely an act in frustration and that most of the time the only thing we can do is plant a seed of doubt but has anyone ever brought evidence forth, where the jw examined it, and they said, "oh?!?

ChrisCross

Hi everyone. This is my first post and I really have a lot to say about my experience with a JW but first and foremost: I was wondering if anyone has posed an argument to a JW, specifically the irrefutable argument that the WT was supporting the UN, that led them question their faith in the organization? I know that going toe to toe with a JW is largely an act in frustration and that most of the time the only thing we can do is plant a seed of doubt but has anyone ever brought evidence forth, where the JW examined it, and they said, "Oh?!?"