Posts by MAHABA

25

What is the bible for?

by Smoky in

jw
friends

i was just wondering the other day about the bible, in a different manner than i usually would (inspired by god).. it is like if i were a atheist, or something........ so what is the bibile?.

is it a rule book, that we must follow?

a guide we reference to enrich our lives?

MAHABA

gathering together "apostate& related" in the XXIst century on this newsgroup.

"And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the JWDF."

35

Can anyone help with info to refute only 144,000 going to heaven?

by The Leological One in

jw
friends

i've recently shown my wife this forum (she's a df'd jw who does still hold fast to jw views).

she's been really depressed and feels down on herself constantly because she wasn't a better witness and seems to feel she has no hope of a personal relationship with god now that she's df'd.

i was a little upset a moment ago trying to get her out of her depression by pushing my point of view that the wt is full of $hit regarding a great many number of things, the least of which that only 144,000 people are going to heaven/effectively can be saved.

MAHABA

The Leological One

Just as Narkissos pointed out in his post, I believe too that 144000 is a symbolic number.

Nevertheless, even if the "born again" are countless, the question, according to my opinion remain, what about the people spoken as inheriting the earth?

35

Can anyone help with info to refute only 144,000 going to heaven?

by The Leological One in

jw
friends

i've recently shown my wife this forum (she's a df'd jw who does still hold fast to jw views).

she's been really depressed and feels down on herself constantly because she wasn't a better witness and seems to feel she has no hope of a personal relationship with god now that she's df'd.

i was a little upset a moment ago trying to get her out of her depression by pushing my point of view that the wt is full of $hit regarding a great many number of things, the least of which that only 144,000 people are going to heaven/effectively can be saved.

MAHABA

In sum: there is nothing to back up the JW teaching which was made up by Rutherford to secure control on the increasing number of people related to the WT in the 30's. Making them "second-class believers," dependent on a "first-class" "represented" by the WT was the trick. Simple really.

Narkissos:

Interresting, but the problem is, is there only an heavenly hope?

And if so, how should we understand text like these:

Heb 2:5:For not unto angels did he subject {1} the world to come, whereof we speak. {1) Gr the inhabited earth}

ou gar {FOR NOT} aggeloiv {TO ANGELS} upetaxen {DID HE SUBJECT} thn {THE} oikoumenhn {HABITABLE WORLD} thn {WHICH} mellousan {IS TO COME} peri {OF} hv {WHICH} laloumen {WE SPEAK;

Here are the occurence in the greek text of Oikoumeneh

Luke 2:1 And it came to pass in those days that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be taxed.

Acts 11:28 And one of them named Agabus stood up, and signified by the Spirit that there would be a great dearth throughout all the world, which came to pass in the days of Claudius Caesar.

Acts 17:6 And when they found them not, they dragged Jason and certain brethren unto the rulers of the city, crying, "These that have turned the world upside down have come hither also,

Acts 17:31 because He hath appointed a Day in which He will judge the world in righteousness by that Man whom He hath ordained. Of this He hath given assurance unto all men, in that He hath raised Him from the dead."

Acts 24:5 For we have found this man a pestilent fellow, and a mover of sedition among all the Jews throughout the world, and a ringleader of the sect of the Nazarenes,

Hebrews 1:6 And again, when He bringeth in the First-Begotten into the world, He saith, "And let all the angels of God worship Him."

Hebrews 2:5 For it was not unto angels that He put in subjection the world to come, of which we speak.

Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out--that serpent of old called the Devil and Satan, who deceiveth the whole world. He was cast out onto the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

MAt5:

Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.

makarioi {A-NPM} oi {T-NPM} praeiv {A-NPM} oti {CONJ} autoi {P-NPM} klhronomhsousin {V-FAI-3P} thn {T-ASF} ghn {N-ASF}

So where will the choosen one be, on earth, or in heaven?

5

valis, re: your response in the apostate question thread..

by candidlynuts in

you replied with these examples:selected verses from the new world translation.

jobverse .

nwt .

MAHABA

The word translated by "apostate" in the NWT is the hebrew word Pnx , chaneph {khaw-nafe'}, and here are some occurrences of the word in the OT

@nEx' adj. profane, irreligious -- profane , godless: of persons; as subst. godless man;

dbat Pnx twqtw la yxks-lk twxra Nk Job 8:13

awby Pnx wynpl al-yk hewsyl yl-awh-Mg Job 13:16

dxs-ylha hlka saw dwmlg Pnx tde-yk Job 15:34

rrety Pnx -le yqnw taz-le Myrsy wmsy Job 17:8

egr-yde Pnx txmvw bwrqm Myesr tnnr yk Job 20:5

wspn hwla lsy yk euby yk Pnx twqt-hm yk Job 27:8

Me ysqmm Pnx Mda Klmm Job 34:30

wulxy Myqydu tedbw wher txsy Pnx hpb Proverbs 11:9

hywjn wdy dwew wpa bs-al taz-lkb hlbn rbd hp-lkw ermw Pnx wlk yk Mxry al wytnmla-taw wymty-taw ynda xmvy-al wyrwxb-le Nk-le <

Jo b So are the paths of all that forget God; and the hope of the godless man shall perish;

Job This also shall be my salvation, that a hypocrite cannot come before

Him.

Job For the company of the godless shall be desolate, and fire shall consume the tents of bribery.

Job 17:8 Upright men are astonished at this, and the innocent stirreth up himself against the godless.

Job 20:5 That the triumphing of the wicked is short, and the joy of the godless but for a moment?

Job 27:8 For what is the hope of the godless , though he get him gain, when God taketh away his soul?

Job 34:30 That the godless man reign not, that there be none to ensnare the people.

Proverbs 11:9 ¶ With his mouth the impious man destroyeth his neighbour; but through knowledge shall the righteous be delivered.

Isaiah (9-16) Therefore the Lord shall have no joy in their young men, neither shall He have compassion on their fatherless and widows; for every one is ungodly and an evil-doer, and every mouth speaketh wantonness. For all this His anger is not turned away, but His hand is stretched out still.

Isaiah 10:6 I do send him against an ungodly nation, and against the people of My wrath do I give him a charge, to take the spoil, and to take the prey, and to tread them down like the mire of the streets.

Isaiah 32:6 For the vile person will speak villainy, and his heart will work iniquity, to practise ungodliness , and to utter wickedness against the LORD, to make empty the soul of the hungry, and to cause the drink of the thirsty to fail.

ESV Job This will be my salvation, that the godless shall not come before him.

@nEx' chaneph {khaw-nafe'}

Meaning: @nEx' adjective masculine singular absolute

B3291

Job 27:8-9: Chaneph

Job 36:13-14 : Chaneph

ESV Psalm 35:16 like profane mockers at a feast, 1 they gnash at me with their teeth.

Chaneph

LXE Proverbs 11:9 In the mouth of ungodly men is a snare to citizens: but the understanding of righteous men is prosperous.

Chaneph

ESV Isaiah 9:17 Therefore the Lord does not rejoice over their young men, and has no compassion on their fatherless and widows; for everyone is godless and an evildoer, and every mouth speaks folly. 1 For all this his anger has not turned away, and his hand is stretched out still.

Chaneph

Gill commentary:for everyone is a hypocrite and an evildoer ; a hypocrite, as Aben Ezra on the place observes, is one that is outwardly good, and inwardly wicked; which was the general character of the people of in Isaiah's time, as it was of the Jews in the times of Christ, see

Es 32:6

כי נבל נבלה ידבר ולבו יעשׂה־און לעשׂות חנף

Chaneph

K&D commentary:In Isa_32:6, commencing with ki (for), the fact that the nâbhâl (fool) and kīlai (crafty man) will lose their titles of honour, is explained on the simple ground that such men are utterly unworthy of them. Nâbhâl is a scoffer at religion, who thinks himself an enlightened man, and yet at the same time has the basest heart, and is a worthless egotist. The infinitives with Lamed show in what the immorality ( 'âven ) consists, with which his heart is so actively employed. In Isa_32:6, ūbh e dabbēr (?and if he speak?) is equivalent to, ?even in the event of a needy man saying what is right and well founded:? Vâv = et in the sense of etiam ((cf., 2Sa_1:23; Psa_31:12; Hos_8:6; Ecc_5:6); according to Knobel, it is equivalent to et quidem, as in Ecc_8:2; Amo_3:11; Amo_4:10; whereas Ewald regards it as Vav conj. (§283, d), ?and by going to law with the needy,? but את־אביון would be the construction in this case

Isa 33:14 The sinners in are afraid; trembling seizes the ungodly: "Who among us can dwell with a consuming fire? Who among us can dwell with ever-burning flames?"

LXT Isaiah 33:14 avpe,sthsan oi` evn Siwn a;nomoi lh,myetai tro,moj tou.j avsebei/j ( sebei/j adjective normal accusative masculine plural no degree[UBS] avsebh,j , e,j godless, impious)

( ti,j avnaggelei/ u`mi/n o[ti pu/r kai,etai ti,j avnaggelei/ u`mi/n to.n to,pon to.n aivw,nion

Chaneph

BHT Isaiah 62:2 würä´û( and they see ) gôyìm( nations ) cidqëk ( righteousness of you )wükol( and all o f )müläkîm( kings ) Kübôdëk (glory of you )wüqöºrä´( and he calls ) läk(to you) ?ëm Hädä?(name new) ´á?er( which ) Pî( mouth of ) yhwh(´ädönäy) yiqqóbe º nnû ( he shall specify him )

Isa 62:1-3 -

K&D:Nearly all the more recent commentators regard the prophet himself as speaking here. Having given himself up to praying to Jehovah and preaching to the people, he will not rest or hold his peace till the salvation, which has begun to be realized, has been brought fully out to the light of day. It is, however, really Jehovah who commences thus: ?For 's sake I shall not be silent, and for 's sake I shall not rest, till her righteousness breaks forth like morning brightness, and her salvation like a blazing torch. And nations will see they righteousness, and all kings thy glory; and men will call thee by a new name, which the mouth of Jehovah will determine. And thou wilt be an adorning coronet in the hand of Jehovah, and a royal diadem in the lap of thy God.? It is evident that Jehovah is the speaker here, both from Isa_62:6 and also from the expression used; for châshâh is the word commonly employed in such utterances of Jehovah concerning Himself, to denote His leaving things in their existing state without interposing (Isa_65:6; Isa_57:11; Isa_64:11). Moreover, the arguments which may be adduced to prove that the author of chapters 40-66 is not the speaker in Isa_61:1-11, also prove that it is not he who is continuing to speak of himself in Isa_62:1-12 Jehovah, having now begun to speak and move on behalf of Zion, will ?for Zion's sake,? i.e., just because it is Zion, His own church, neither be silent nor give Himself rest, till He has gloriously executed His work of grace. is now in the shade, but the time will come when her righteousness will go forth as nōgah , the light which bursts through the night (Isa_60:19; Isa_59:9; here the morning sunlight, Pro_4:18; compare shachar , the morning red, Isa_58:8); or till her salvation is like a torch which blazes. יבער belongs to כלפּיד ( mercha ) in the form of an attributive clause = בּער , although it might also be assumed that יבער stands by attraction for תבער (cf., Isa_2:11; Ewald, §317, c). The verb בּער , which is generally applied to wrath (e.g., Isa_30:27), is here used in connection with salvation, which has wrath towards the enemies of Zion as its obverse side: Zion's tsedeq (righteousness) shall become like the morning sunlight, before which even the last twilight has vanished; and Zion's y e shū‛âh is like a nightly torch, which sets fire to its own material, and everything that comes near it. The force of the conjunction עד (until) does not extend beyond Isa_62:1. From Isa_62:2 onwards, the condition of things in the object indicated by עד is more fully described. The eyes of the nations will be directed to the righteousness of , the impress of which is now their common property; the eyes of all kings to her glory, with which the glory of none of them, nor even of all together, can possibly compare. And because this state of is a new one, which has never existed before, her old name is not sufficient to indicate her nature. She is called by a new name; and who could determine this new name? He who makes the church righteous and glorious, He, and He alone, is able to utter a name answering to her new nature, just as it was He who called Abram Abraham, and Jacob Israel. The mouth of Jehovah will determine it ( נקב , to pierce, to mark, to designate in a signal and distinguishing manner, nuncupare; cf., Amo_6:1; Num_1:17). It is only in imagery that prophecy here sees what Zion will be in the future: she will be ?a crown of glory,? ?a diadem,? or rather a tiara ( ts e nīph ; Chethib ts e nūph = mitsnepheth , the head-dress of the high priest, Exo_28:4; Zec_3:5; and that of the king, Eze_21:31) ?of regal dignity,? in the hand of her God (for want of a synonym of ?hand,? we have adopted the rendering ?in the lap? the second time that it occurs). Meier renders יהוה בּיד ( בּכף ) Jovae sub praesidio, as though it did not form part of the figure. But it is a main feature in the figure, that Jehovah holds the crown in His hand. is not the ancient crown which the Eternal wears upon His head, but the crown wrought out in time, which He holds in His hand, because He is seen in by all creation. The whole history of salvation is the history of the taking of the kingdom, and the perfecting of the kingdom by Jehovah; in other words, the history of the working out of this crown.

Ylt-Jer The hope of is Jehovah, All forsaking Thee are ashamed, And `My apostates' in the earth are written , For they have forsaken Jehovah, A fountain of living waters.

XT Jeremiah u`pomonh. Israhl ku,rie pa,ntej oi` katalipo,ntej se kataiscunqh,twsan avfesthko,tej evpi. th/j gh/j grafh,twsan o[ti evgkate,lipon phgh.n zwh/j to.n ku,rion

Jer 17:13 Oh Jehová, esperanza de Israel! todos los que te dejan, serán avergonzados; y los que de mí se apartan,

BHT Jeremiah 17:13 miqwË( expectation of ) yiSrä´ël (Israël) yhwh(´ädönäy) Kol( all of )-`özbÊºkä( ones forsaking you ) yëböº?û( they shall be ashamed ) (yìsôray)( and one withdrawing from me ) [wüsûray] Bä´äºrec( in earth ) yiKKätëºbû( they shall be written ) Kî ( that )`äzbû( they forsake ) müqôr ( foutain of )ma|yim( waters )-Hayyîm( living one ) ´et-yhwh(´ädönäy) s

3249 rwoy yacuwr yaw-soor?

from 05493 ; TWOT-1480; adj

AV-depart 1; 1

1 ) those departing, revolting

Amitiés

Ivan

9

LOVE IN FRANCE, and what about you?

by MAHABA in

jw
friends

this trailer has been done by french governement to show what happen to some beaten wives.

(they said that 10% of women are beaten by their husband in france)

http://www.justice.gouv.fr/violencesconjugales/45secvf.mpg

MAHABA

I know, where I leave in France, among the friends of my son, at least to girls who are regularly beaten by their boyfrend.(one girl is 16 and the other 19). When asked why they stay with such guy, they said, he will change, or this is my fault! So even among you people, this scourge, violence against women, is present.

9

LOVE IN FRANCE, and what about you?

by MAHABA in

jw
friends

this trailer has been done by french governement to show what happen to some beaten wives.

(they said that 10% of women are beaten by their husband in france)

http://www.justice.gouv.fr/violencesconjugales/45secvf.mpg

MAHABA

This trailer has been done by French Governement to show what happen to some beaten wives.(They said that 10% of women are beaten by their husband in France)

http://www.justice.gouv.fr/violencesconjugales/45secVF.mpg

A bit long to download

The translation of the text:
Je t'aime: I love youUn peu : A little bitBeaucoup : A lotPassionnément: PassionatelyA la Folie : With madnessPas du tout: Not at all

Today, in France 1/10 woman is victim of marital violence

Let us react before it is too late

31

What's in your library?

by the_classicist in

whats in your personal bible or religious library?

let's see what i have... cambridge kjv (really nice, calfskin leather), cambridge reb (really nice, not as good as kjv though), 50 year old douay rheims (with annoying jw notes and written-in textual changes inside, courtesy jw great-grandmother), rsv-ce (imitation leather, looks extremely cheap), nab (imitation leather, looks better but sucky confraternity notes in it).

that's my bible collection (i got rid of the nwt).

MAHABA

About 10 bibles in french (other than NWT), 10 in english, 1 in german,1 in Croat,2 NT in hebrew,2 in Arabic, the LXX, Kittel in hebrew,interlinear hebrew-english,Vulgata,Vine's dictionary, Gesenius,dictionnaire des Religions, some works of Mircea Eliade, Catholic cathechism(french), Irenaus of Lyon (vs.Hr) talmud,A Q'ran in Arabic and french, synopsis,and many other books on religion and all kind of subject. And also, E-sword, Bibleonline, Bible Works, Watchtower library 2003 French , 2001 English, Encyclopedia Universalis French, Britannica, Encyclopedia from Diderot & d'Alembert(French).

7

Vines Suppository and the WT

by hamsterbait in

jw
friends

the wt frequently quotes from "vines expository dictionary.

" i heard recently that many of their interpretationsof the symbols of revelation were lifted from that dictionary, and applied by rutherfranz to any current events that could be made to fit.. e.g.

the beasts.. does anybody have a copy - can you verify this.