the babylon with "graven images" quoted from jeremiah and isaiah was not a religious entity but a political entity.
jeremiah 43:12. .
jeremiah 43:13. .
Hi, LittleToe:
I'm afraid I didn't realise it was you!
Yes, I used to have two posting names. I just like the handle "binadub". So when I asked what happened, they deleted "Ros" and gave me back "binadub"--so that's the way I left it. :-)
I haven't been around here too much for a while, so I didn't know until this thread that you are Ross. (Nice name. :-)))))))
{{{hugs}}}
Ross.
{{{Back atcha! }}}
Blessings,
~Ros
i don't often open up discussions on my beliefs or experiences in life, but i feel a need, so please excuse me if you feel it untoward.
neither is this a poxy swan-song, i'm just opening up my heart a little.. today i had cause to reflect on a conversation i had with my [now ex-]wife shortly after my epithany.
everything was so new and unknown.
jst2laws wrote:
In my personal journey I have gone from duped believer to rational agnostic. Since studying QM and the new science of consciousness I have come full circle to believing, not in a mythical god but, that there is far more to life than this human experience. And surprisingly it boils down to being "all about love, light, and life" as LT said in his first post. I'm more open now to feelings and experience in an area where tangible prove and factual answers cannot be expected.
That was an interesting post, Steve. What you describe is my launching point for faith. My Christian faith grows from further delving along that line.
How are ya? ~Ros
the babylon with "graven images" quoted from jeremiah and isaiah was not a religious entity but a political entity.
jeremiah 43:12. .
jeremiah 43:13. .
I'm not surprised if we have talked about Babylon the Great.
It's one of my favorite topics that I disagree with just about every religion I know of--except the WWCoG.
The Worldwide Church of God, before its reform, used to teach the same as the Watchtower--that it was "false religion."
I knew that. I had an occasion to be seated for lunch next to the WWCoG organization treasurer and a professor at their college, and we had a brief discussion about why I had left Jehovah's Witnesses. Knowing they had the same teaching :-))), I told him that one of the reasons was my disagreement with their interpretation of Babylon the Great as "false religion." He asked me what I thought it was and I told him.
I will never know whether our conversation was an influence, but within a year they had a new publication out titled "Babylon the Great" and it explained in far more elaborate detail and graphics what I had discussed with their Treasurer-Business Manager (i.e., high member of their GB). I still have three copies of that publication, but I don't know what their teaching is on it now.
~Ros
i would give anything to see the old h2o archives from december 1997-feb1998, this was the time period that i came online for the first time and discovered the real truth about the so called "truth".
i believe i came to h20 either late december or early january.
i would love to find my old posts and see the frame of mind i was in back then.
Timothy Kline has an archive of H2O. He was publishing it on a mirror forum of H2O, but I see he has abandoned the project.
You can find Timothy Kline on the net. Try Google.
~Ros
the babylon with "graven images" quoted from jeremiah and isaiah was not a religious entity but a political entity.
jeremiah 43:12. .
jeremiah 43:13. .
.
Hello, Proplog2:
Long time no chat. You seem to have come a way since we last corresponded. ;-D))))
Your subject is one near and dear to my heart. I have discussed it numerous times on the Internet and many times before.
You see, this subject was probably the main point of contention I had with the Watchtower religion while I was struggling to believe it for years. But when the book Babylon the Great was published, it was the first time I knew consciously that I definitely disagreed with the Watchtower on a doctrine. It was a biggee in waking me up from "The Lie".
Mine was simply by reading the chapter on Babylon the Great.
Without going into what I believe "she" is, let me simply point out that by reading Chapter 18, it has always seemed very clear to me that Babylon the Great has nothing whatsoever to do with religion. She is not about religion. I used to argue that with overseers before and even got warned one time that "you might be right--but you could be disfellowshipped for 'getting ahead of the organization'."
Question: If religion fell the world over tomorrow, would the merchants be weeping and waling? Would they care?
I could write a book on my discussions and arguments on this topic. What's amazing is that the WTS is not the only religious denomination that makes the absurd interpretation that Babylon the Great is religion.
I am a "partial Preterist", but I do not agree with their interpretation that Babylon the Great was solely Rome.
~Ros
(Sorry for the other pseudonym. I used to have two--ros and binadub. They stopped letting us have more than one and I got binadub. :-))
i have tried in vain to email ray franz through his editor.
could someone here who has a more direct way of contacting him deliver a message for me?
please pm me if you can help.
nobody ever said that the end was coming in 1975.. all the hype about this date that has continued all the way down through today came from a talk in the early 70's by fred franz.
in this talk, franz pointed out the significance of the 7 creative days and how they correspond with 1,000-year time intervals.. he then said, "could the end come in 1975?
there's so much wrong with jehovah's witnesses from their rigid legalism to their faux love, but let's call a spade a spade about the 1975 thing..
I just posted this in another thread, and I'll copy it here since it is on topic:
In a thread requesting if anyone had a copy of CoC because the lady thought there was a WT quote stating that Armageddon would occur in 1975, I wrote the following:
==============================
Well here are some things they did say in the publications that were pretty definitive:
In the book "Life Everlasting in Freedom of the Sons of God"--the book that started the frenzie:
Page 28-29, paragraph 41 says:
Since the time of Ussher intensive study of Bible chronology has been carried on. In this twentieth century an independent study has been carried on that does not blindly follow some traditional chronological calculations of Christendom, and the published timetable resulting from this independent study gives the date of man's creation as 4026 B.C.E. According to this truthworthy Bible chronology six thousand years from man's creation will end in 1975, and the seventh period of a thousand years of human history will begin in the fall of 1975 C.E.
Now maybe they didn't come right out and say Armageddon would occur in 1975, but every JW in the organization at that time knew that the Watchtower teaching was that the seventh period of a thousand years was to begin after Armageddon in the "new earth."
After 1975 when the end did not occur, Fred Franz blamed the JWs for jumping to that conclusion, charging that while they knew Adam was created in 4026, they could not know how many years after Adam she was created, and the sixth thousand year period could not begin until after she was created. Yet, in the "Aid to Bible Understanding" dictionary of JW beliefs (later replaced by the "Insight" volumes):
Page 333 states that Adam at age 130 had a son, Seth.
Page 538 states that Eve at age 130 had a son, Seth.
Watchtower, 5/1/68:
". . . it is logical he would create Eve soon after Adam, perhaps just a few weeks or months later in the same year, 4026."
The Awake! on October 8, 1966 on page 19 makes this statement:
"In what year, then, would the first 6,000 years of man's existenance and also the first 6,000 years of God's rest day come to an end? The year 1975"
Page 51 of the "Eternal Purpose" publication describes the 'Evening' of seventh creative 'day' begins, 4026 B.C.E.
But here is the Watchtower reference you might be referring to:
"Are we to assume from this study that the battle of Armageddon will be all over by the autumn of 1975, and the long-looked-for thousand-year reign of Christ will begin by then? Possibly . . . . It may involve only a difference of weeks or months, not years.
So, no, the Watchtower never actually said: "Armageddon will occur in 1975"--but they the same as said it. And they knew their flock believed it, but they never corrected it. Course you have to realize that once the "Life Everlasting" book was published, there was a frenzie to get on the good side of Jehovah and the money the WTS was raking in from the enthusiastic publishers was not to be interferred with. Growth was the sign of Jehovah's blessings, always.
~Ros
we have a stack of old jw (wts) and jw-related (commentary-type) books sat in boxes.
we haven't looked at them for years now and probably won't ever again.
options are:.
Someone--I think it was Joey Stagnitto--said they may good toilett paper.
(I wouldn't know.) :-)
~Ros
i would love to meet up with x jw's from sa.
we are in the western cape.
thought it would be great to meet up and share our experiences and support each other..
Mrs. Smith:
I may be able to put you in touch with a long-time closet exJW in S.Africa.
If you will send me your e-mail, I'll forward it to the party and ask if they will contact you.
E-mail me at: [email protected]
~Binadub
.. i'm doing a bit of a research poll on the views of christians who were formerly in the watchtower religion.. i'm using a website i set up some years ago that i thought had gone off the web, but the shell is still there.. if you go to this url:.
http://wc0.worldcrossing.com/webx?14@@.1dde28dd.
and click on the right to register, i would welcome the input of any interested exwitnesses who are still believers or are questioning faith.. thanks,.
.
I'm doing a bit of a research poll on the views of Christians who were formerly in the Watchtower religion.
I'm using a website I set up some years ago that I thought had gone off the Web, but the shell is still there.
If you go to this URL:
http://wc0.worldcrossing.com/WebX?14@@.1dde28dd
and click on the right to register, I would welcome the input of any interested exWitnesses who are still believers or are questioning faith.
Thanks,
~Bin
