Concave bra?? LOL, good description.
At least she did have to worry that some other woman would be wearing the same outfit...
blacksheep
JoinedPosts by blacksheep
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22
Worst Dresses Stars
by meadow77 in.
there is always some celebrity out to prove that no amount of money, hired image consultants, and famous designers dying to give you free stuff, can buy you good tastes.
i submit the following.. .
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18
FINALLY stood up to my father re: religion!
by back2dafront inas you all may remember, i left the organization 4 years ago - never df'd, never dissassociated, just left.
my parents initially tried everything they could to get me to come back but to no avail.
they've never really shunned me because we still talk on the phone, but seeing that we live on the opposite coasts, i've only seen them once in 4 years.
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blacksheep
Glad you had the confidence to speak your mind. I wouldn't worry a bit about the marriage "stats." Having sex before marriage seems to me to be an odd correlate to a successful marriage. Maybe back in the days where people had to wear scarlet letters for pre-marital sex: the guilt alone would probably damper the marriage! But in today's world? Don't think so. Plus, I think you're right ON about the JW's marrying the first "marriagable" person simply because there's no other acceptable arrangement to experience sex than marriage. I get so sick of hearing (via JW family) about yet another 18-20 year old getting married. Like I'm supposed to be happy for them. Go to college. Travel. Get some life experience. Don't marry just to have sex. BTW, I think someone should do a study of all the broken/unhappy marriages of JW couples who marry early to have sex. I've heard WAAAAAAY too many of them.
Keep us posted!! I know well that sinking feeling/fear of finally standing up to that JW mentality...esp when it's to a parent.
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64
DID ANYONE EVER ENJOY GOING IN SERVICE?
by minimus ini was raised with a bookbag in my hand.
every saturday and sunday our family was out in service.i vacation, temporary and auxillary and regular pioneered.
i never enjoyed it but did it because i was supposed to do it.
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blacksheep
I hated it. I was embarrassed at invading people's privacy. Plus, it seemed like such an excercise it futility: obviously the people who were genuinely interested were VERY few and far between. It seemed like a horrendous waste of time and energy. Of course, I was chided for not "enjoying it." Although obviously I didn't speak out, I avoided it as much as I possibly could. Oddly, I'm generally considered highly articulate and a good communicator, but out in service I really found myself tongue tied. Guess we can chalk it up to my really not buying the message I was supposed to deliver.
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29
Ever Shun a JW?
by larc inmy jw sister and i are on good terms, and i talk to her on a regular basis.
on the other hand, i have a jw cousin who i hope never to talk to again.
i have only seen her once in 30 years and that was at my sister's daugher's wedding.
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blacksheep
I guess I have been "shunning" my family who have shunned me, sort of as a natural instinct. Being raised as a JW and being fully aware of the mind games they play, it seems to me logical that their shunning tactics are designed to elicit a reaction, primarily of fear, shame, anxiety, and culminating (ideally) in an attempt on the part of the "shunned" to get back into the good graces of the congregation and regain the approval of those they lost. Classic control tactic.
So, what's the best way to deal with that type of manipulation? I suppose it depends upon one's personal view. If they really DO miss association with the JW's, if they were in fact happier when they had their approval, if they come to realize these people's blessing and association are really desireable, chances are they'll make the needed changes so as to avoid the discomfort of being shunned. They'll take steps to be reinstated.
If OTOH, they simply think the shunning is unfair and hope to convince through persuasive discussion, or something similar, the ones who shun them to STOP shunning them because it is unfair and because they are really good people undeserving of such treatment, they'll probably try to invest some degree of effort trying to associate with and hopefully counteracting the shunning their loved ones do. They in essense, hope their JW relatives will come to see the error of their ways and once again embrace them unconditionally. Based on my knowledge and first hand experience with JW's, this is basically a futile hope IN MOST CASES. Bottom line is that the JW is still in control; the shunned one still hopes to influence a change.
Another way in which some of us have attempted to deal with the shunning is to naturally shun are JW friends/relatives OURSELVES. Basically, there is very little I even have in common with my JW relatives, there is so much I have to filter in our discussions, I'm never really at ease with them, since I cannot just "be myself," that rationally, there is very little incentive I have to be around them. Coupled with their spoken and unspoken (but quite visible) judgements on most aspects of my "worldy" life, I say, who needs them? Yes, I have a concern for my relatives and would feel bad for any misfortune befalling them, but there is such a wall there, created by the religion and maintained by them, that I simply cannot waste a lot of time and energy attempting to be around them. Recently, I took a more overt shunning stance when I learned that they were TRULY shunning me by not inviting me to basic family events.
So, I guess shunning them to the extent they shun me is the most reasonable, logical, and emotionally sound course of action for me.
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21
How did you view your congregation?
by haujobbz in.
when i was in my congregation i found it to be a very selfish self spirited congregation,i also found many witnesses to be very easily offended and hyper sensitive oh and i forgot the gossip ohh the gossip was horrendous, this hyper sensitivity really got on my nerves because it was starting to rub off on me and i started to get paranoid and easily offended and i was never like that b4.. and what pi@@ed me off was the fact how brothers on the stage said how loving our congregation was and what a good reputation it was known to have.. but now i have left and im back to my down to earth happy personality.
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blacksheep
Interesting question. I live in a fairly large metropolitan area with several congs relatively nearby. Funny, but I think my "devout" JW mother moved around to other congregations A LOT. I'd say every two years. So, I really never got a chance to get super entrenched in them. (To tell you the truth, I think my mom initiated a congregation move whenever some of the people got under her skin. I think she's continued the same trend today...although all her kids have left the nest, she and her unbelieving but JW supporting husband (my father) move around quite a bit...).
There were people I liked; and many I didn't even know that well or particularly care to know. There were a few that I think I admired from afar...usually those were the ones who for one reason or another ended up leaving as well.
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31
I NEED your advice!!!!! Please reply!
by worldly girl inok here's the deal..... i've not had much to do w/ my parents since jan '02 when my mother and i got into over her force feeding my 3 year old the "troof".
when i respectfully ask her on behalf of myself and my non jw husband, to respect us enough to let us teach our child about religion.... her response was "well if you don't want her around our religion, then don't bring her around us".
and during the course of this conversation she stated this in the most hateful of tones at least 4 or 5 times to both me and my husband, in front of our daughter.... well i was furious.... that she would say such a thing and openly chose to have nothing to w/ my daughter.. without being given an ultimatum<sp> to choose.
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blacksheep
Ack!! I forgot. One practical suggestion I wanted to share with you, which I gleaned from reading a few self-help books on relationships with parents: this one I think comes from the book "Toxic Parents" by Forward(?)
When it comes to maintaining/continuing a relationships which highly toxic/dysfunctional families, you basically have 3 options, depending of course, upon your family.
1) Some families, when appropriately and constructively confronted with their unacceptable or problematic behavior DO make an effort to work with you, understand your feelings, and make changes. In such cases, a good relationship can be built from a previously broken one. As the book noted FEW families achieve this, sadly. (And I think we know where most JW relatives would fall when talking about "change"....)
2) You maintain a distant, but polite relationship with them. This means basically a superficially pleasant relationship, avoiding hot buttons, unpleasant topics, etc. Obviously, this takes the cooperation of you PARENTS to achieve this. If they do not maintain a pleasant relationship by continuing to say or do hurtful things or things you have clearly asked them not to do, such as indoctrinating you daughter, all bets are off. You go to number 3.
3) Pretty much avoid all contact with your family/parents. Save youself the bother and turmoil.
So, sounds to me you are close to where I am, between 2 and 3.
I thought this was helpful/useful to see that at least, with all our JW dysfunction, we're NOT alone in struggling to maintain a reasonable relationship with our first families. And, even the experts recognizes that many dysfunctional family relationships have to be pretty much stopped (or relegated to simple polite, occasional interchanges). HTH (at least a bit!)
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31
I NEED your advice!!!!! Please reply!
by worldly girl inok here's the deal..... i've not had much to do w/ my parents since jan '02 when my mother and i got into over her force feeding my 3 year old the "troof".
when i respectfully ask her on behalf of myself and my non jw husband, to respect us enough to let us teach our child about religion.... her response was "well if you don't want her around our religion, then don't bring her around us".
and during the course of this conversation she stated this in the most hateful of tones at least 4 or 5 times to both me and my husband, in front of our daughter.... well i was furious.... that she would say such a thing and openly chose to have nothing to w/ my daughter.. without being given an ultimatum<sp> to choose.
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blacksheep
Wise words, Tinkerbell. You summarized beautifully the issues I'm also in the process of learning. And WG, I know I keep saying this, but your situation/feelings are so similar to mine, right down from DH commenting about my personality/attitude changing after I'm around/speak to my JW family. Eerie.
I've pretty much laid it on the line to my sister that I'm not going to accept the one-way shunning/manipulative behavior that the JW's in my family dole out. They'd like to see my kids (on their terms of course), while shunning/manipulating me. My sister's joined at the hip to my mother, so I'm sure she's shared my comments with my mom.
It really causes you to do some soul searching and evaluate just what is acceptable/not acceptable in family relationships. If you feel bad, if you feel put down, left out, shunned, ignorned, abused, manipulated, etc., why in the world should you feel obligated to continue to expose yourself AND the rest of your family to the same people??? What can you reasonably expect???
Anyway, I think it is really hard for some people who've never intimately been around JWs to understand the dilemma that many of us face. Few families that I know of draw life/death lines that JW's do, as in "you've turned away, you'll die at Armageddon. And so will your family if you don't return to being a JW. Furthermore, everything you do outside of being a JW is doomed to failure."
From my perspective, it's hard to forgive and accept that kind of black/white thinking. Either from family or from anyone else. So, like others have said, I need to protect myself and do what's best all around. I cannot worry about nor control them (or their emotions). Plus, they haven't seemed to be overly concerned with my feelings.
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blacksheep
I love it!!! It so truthfully and simply exposes the lunacy of the organization. It appears to be well-written and factual. It would be wonderful if this article could be published more broadly.
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15
What are JW's embarrased to say to interested ones
by In_between_days inmy latest addition to my thread "armageddon - jw speculations" got me thinking.
i was talking about jw's, and how they will avoid telling people at the doors that they believe they will be the only ones to survive armageddon.. i know when i was a jw, there was certain things that i was embarrased to tell interested ones about, and prefered to avoid the issue, or prance around it, trying to make it sound less harsh, or make me look like a complete nut.
when i talk to my jw family now, i notice there are certain issues that they will try to deny about the organisation, constantly.
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blacksheep
I agree with what others have said here. But the thing that REALLY burned me up for some reason was my family's refusal to go to any church weddings of friends/family. (I know, some say it's a "conscience" thing, but my family's "spriitual conscience...i.e. my MOTHER, always dictated we could not do this).
Instead of truthfully stating, "we don't want to set foot in your church because it's part of false religion" which was the REAL reason, my JW family always said, "John (my brother-in-law) has to work," or some similar LAME and btw UNTRUE excuse. We'd manage to make it to the reception, but not the church wedding ceremony. I cannot tell you how many relative's weddings I missed. The funny thing was, my relatives managed to make it to all of our family's JW weddings: although a practicing member of other religions, THEY didn't have such an incredible intolerance of others....
I recall when I got older, "fell away" and decided I wasn't going to play that stupid game, I WENT to the weddings AND the receptions. My mother and rest of the JW family were upset, because I wasn't going along with the family plan. Too bad.
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I NEED your advice!!!!! Please reply!
by worldly girl inok here's the deal..... i've not had much to do w/ my parents since jan '02 when my mother and i got into over her force feeding my 3 year old the "troof".
when i respectfully ask her on behalf of myself and my non jw husband, to respect us enough to let us teach our child about religion.... her response was "well if you don't want her around our religion, then don't bring her around us".
and during the course of this conversation she stated this in the most hateful of tones at least 4 or 5 times to both me and my husband, in front of our daughter.... well i was furious.... that she would say such a thing and openly chose to have nothing to w/ my daughter.. without being given an ultimatum<sp> to choose.
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blacksheep
It really burns me up that they want to try to have a relationship with my child, yet I am their child and they want NOTHING to do with me. That makes me wonder if when my child is old enough, will they treat her the same way if she makes her OWN choices???
WG, sorry I do not have any revolutionary solutions for you, but you just nailed EXACTLY what Im experiencing with my family. My mom sounds very similar to yours, and my dads a non-believer but ALWAYS supported mom in forcing us to be JWs. Hes also made me sick with holding my holier-than-thou MOTHER up as the object of selflessness, when in reality, I know shes not. Hes been bambozzled by her JW claims of goodness all these years, and because Ive never really accepted it, never liked service, meetings, etcs., Im selfish.
I feel exactly the same way YOU feel about your parents trying to have relationship with your daughter when they treat you like CRAP. I just explained exactly that thing to my JW sister, who wants to be there to celebrate the birth of my next child, but at the same times wants to shun me. Its a long, long story, which I wont go into here.
But, you know, I think whats happening here is that BOTH of us are so angry with what happened to us as kids, all the deprivation, the abuse (I wasnt sexually abused, however, thats got to be brutal for you), the singling out as different from everyone else, the never measuring up to perfect JW standards.were still hurting. And we DONT want to see our children hurt in the same way. When mom comes in and starts making it look like shes wonder grandma, or whatever, or makes it appear that SHE knows whats best for our kids, its the same old replay. Were older, wiser, and have managed to separate ourselves from the JW sickness, but we cannot help but see our situation through our childrens. We dont want what happened to us to happen to them. And, as sick as my mom is in that religion, I would not put it past her to try to make her grandchildren into what her children could have been. I know my mom has talked about secretly studying with children (when I was a JW), so I am VERY leary of her intentions.
Im a bit lucky in this situation, because I honestly dont think my mother has a lot to offer my son and about-to-be-born daughter. I really dont. Sounds harsh, but Im so sick of her being held up as a holy person that I think she needs to be brought down to earth. And I think she sucked in many ways as a mother. Had she failed to try to shield me from sexual abuse and then claim I was lying, I REALLY would worry. Not only for myself but for my child. Im also lucky if you can call it that, in that my son has not developed a very close relationship with his grandmother: there has always been a distance.
Anyway, just trying to let you know I understand, even if I do not have the answers. Children are SO innocent and trusting. When you hear her talk about her grandparents, I know its hard. But my guess is that it bothers you FAR more than her. Shes not privy to all the treatment you had growing up, and if she WERE, she wouldnt be able to do anything about it anyway, as a child. She'd probably accept their behavior as normal.. All you can do is to try to protect her. And protect yourself. And trust your instincts.
Again, I think Id think about exactly what limits you would like to set in this relationship. Or even if you WANT a relationship at all. It IS your call. I think it bugs your parents (particularly your mother) to no end that you have control in a situation that she does not. JW's feed on control, and they clearly don't have it with you.