Posts by slimboyfat

59

Proof of two destinies for believers in the Bible, heavenly and earthly

by slimboyfat in

the jw idea that believers are destined either for heavenly life or for endless life on earth comes in for significant criticism by critics of various kinds.

even some groups, such as the christadelphians, who share belief in a future paradise earth, don’t share the view that some christians are destined for life in heaven.

yet there is surprisingly quite a lot of evidence in the bible for the existence of two distinct groups of believers.

slimboyfat

KerryKing, Yes, certainly, the Jews were given first refusal, and some did accept the invitation, when the covenant was kept in force “for one week” (Dan 9.27) until 36 CE. But as a whole the nation of Israel did not accept the invitation and therefore it was given to a new nation producing fruits, (Matt 21.43) the “Israel of God”. (Gal 6.16). Paul describes this process in Rom 11 where he says that people from the nations had to be grafted in, so that the number of “Israel” could be complete. (Rom 11.25, 26)

59

Proof of two destinies for believers in the Bible, heavenly and earthly

by slimboyfat in

the jw idea that believers are destined either for heavenly life or for endless life on earth comes in for significant criticism by critics of various kinds.

even some groups, such as the christadelphians, who share belief in a future paradise earth, don’t share the view that some christians are destined for life in heaven.

yet there is surprisingly quite a lot of evidence in the bible for the existence of two distinct groups of believers.

slimboyfat

The JW idea that believers are destined either for heavenly life or for endless life on earth comes in for significant criticism by critics of various kinds. Even some groups, such as the Christadelphians, who share belief in a future paradise earth, don’t share the view that some Christians are destined for life in heaven.

Yet there is surprisingly quite a lot of evidence in the Bible for the existence of two distinct groups of believers. This is especially evident in the book of Revelation, which makes sense if JWs are correct that this prophetic book projects forward to the period when the second group of believers with an earthly destiny is to be gathered.

The most obvious indication of two groups of believers is Revelation 7 which contrasts the 144,000 “Israelites”, with the great crowd from every tribe and nation that no one was able to number.

On top of that, we have Revelation 14.4 where the 144,000 are described as “bought from among mankind as firstfruits”. If these believers are “firstfruits to God and to the Lamb”, that would imply there are other believers who are subsequent fruitage, though not part of this initial group.

Then there is mention of those who are part of the “first resurrection” in Rev 20.6, who are said to rule as kings with Christ for 1000 years. In verse 5 we were told that “the rest of the dead did not come to life until the 1000 years were ended”. Again, clearly we have two separate groups of believers, only one of which rules with Christ.

Which all makes sense when you consider that, in order for there to be kings and priests, there must be subjects of the kingdom for those kings and priests to rule over. The prospect of being rulers of the nations was held out to Israel. When they rejected the privilege it was given to another nation producing fruits, (Matt 21.43) the “Israel of God”. (Gal 6.16)

One more indication of two groups of believers comes in Rev 22.17: “the spirit and the bride keep saying, ‘Come!’ and let anyone hearing say, ‘Come!’ and let anyone thirsting come; let anyone who wishes take life’s water free.” Here, the bride of Christ extends the invitation to others to benefit from life’s water free. This must be the second group of believers indicated by the “great crowd”, and “the rest” who came to life at the end of the 1000 years.

What about Ephesians 4.4 that says: “you were called to the one hope of your calling”. Doesn’t this show that there are not two groups of believers? Two things to note about that: 1) when Paul wrote this letter there were only anointed Christians at that time, one group, and 2) although the anointed and the great crowd have different destinies, they both exercise faith in Jesus as the basis for their shared hope of salvation from sin and death. So in that sense perhaps JWs should drop the language of “two hopes”, or “heavenly” and “earthly hopes”, if that terminology causes any stumbling. It might be better to talk about two destinies for believers, either ruling with Christ in heaven, or subjects of the kingdom on earth, which is based on a range on biblical statements including the few reviewed above.

28

how do you feel about the use of the name Jehovah now?

by enoughisenough in

for those who still believe in god and the bible, how do you feel/think about the name jehovah now?

i am one who never wanted to bring reproach on god's name.

i will admit using the word jehovah now makes me feel rather icky...like i am promoting a lie of sorts.

slimboyfat

Very interesting. Vasileiadis is a JW from Greece from what I can gather. His essays are good. I recommend the book by Shaw, The Earliest Non-Mystical Jewish Use of IAW, if you can get your hands on it. He amasses the evidence from various sources for Yaho.

https://www.amazon.com/Earliest-Non-Mystical-Contributions-Biblical-Exegesis/dp/9042929782/

Recently a couple of Evangelicals, John Meade and Peter Gurry, have published a book Scribes & Scripture, where they acknowledge that Yaho was the popular pronunciation of God’s name and are open to the idea that Jesus used this pronunciation. (See page 55) This is an advance on earlier Evangelicals who argued that Jesus would not have used God’s name.

https://www.amazon.com/Scribes-Scripture-Amazing-Story-Bible/dp/1433577895/

Do I gather from what you say that you’re someone who still holds the beliefs of JWs on the divine name but you don’t believe God is using the Watchtower organisation? What are your views on other beliefs, such as Jesus is an angel, future paradise, 1914, blood, the 144,000 and so on? Do you know others in a similar position as yourself?

28

how do you feel about the use of the name Jehovah now?

by enoughisenough in

for those who still believe in god and the bible, how do you feel/think about the name jehovah now?

i am one who never wanted to bring reproach on god's name.

i will admit using the word jehovah now makes me feel rather icky...like i am promoting a lie of sorts.

slimboyfat

FreeTheMasons is correct, the Greek pronunciation of God’s name is Yaho and this is perhaps the form of the divine name that Jesus used. I came across this in books by McDonough and Shaw. I wonder where you came across it? Because the textbooks of a previous generation claimed that Jesus didn’t use God’s name.

2909

It's been a long 9 years Lloyd Evans / John Cedars (continued)

by Simon in

jw
friends

uh oh, looks like the mega thread gave up the ghost, so while i investigate / fix it just continue the discussion here .... it's been a long 9 years lloyd evans / john cedars.

slimboyfat

I feel sorry for them. What a terrible misfortune that their daughter stumbled across this English narcissist, a wolf in sheep’s clothing at the Kingdom Hall. Life could have turned out completely different for all of them if he had been prowling somewhere else at the crucial moment.

6

Another way you are being spied upon

by careful in

from jeremy hsu, technology writer for new scientist magazine.. smart tvs take snapshots of what you watch multiple times per second.

smart tvs from samsung and lg take screenshots of what you are watching even when you are using them to display images from a connected laptop or video game console.

read the whole article below.

slimboyfat

Phones and cars and perhaps other devices do listen to conversations that are within range of their “hearing”. Ten years ago I would have thought that was a crackpot idea, but now I think it’s pretty likely the case, given what we know from: Snowden; US spying on Merkel; three-letter agencies controling social media; the technical feasibility of doing so; the increasingly obvious propensity of government and business to spy on everything for their own advantage; as well as my own experiences, and others I know, of the phone apparently reacting to in-person conversations, as the other poster mentioned.

53

WTS 2024 Annual Business Meeting ...

by careful in

... is just three weeks from this saturday.

the org has been tight-lipped, really, successfully secret about advance info on these in recent years,.

now that these relatively recent changes on dress and grooming, reporting fs time, judicial matters, etc.

slimboyfat

A new book on Revelation is overdue. The previous one was published 36 years ago in 1988. That’s longer than any previous period between books covering Revelation.

The Finished Mystery (1917)

Light I & II (1930)

Babylon the Great Has Fallen (1963)

Then is Finished the Mystery of God (1969)

Revelation—Its Grand Climax at Hand! (1988)

New Book (2024?)

But then, Watchtower is no longer primarily a book publishing organisation, so maybe the interval is no longer relevant?

A new Revelation book would present potentially difficult choices, such as whether to stick with a literal 144,000, with the 1914 and 1919 dates, and the wacky bowls and trumpet blasts interpretations.

If they do attempt it, then it will probably follow the pattern of the Pure Worship book on Ezekiel, and the book on Acts, which both declared that they were not verse by verse commentaries and therefore focussed on highlights and themes instead. Then they could effectively avoid parts they find tricky and offer impressions and lessons rather than detailed interpretations.

62

Ten reasons Jehovah’s Witnesses have the true religion (plus a bonus one)

by slimboyfat in

thinking back when i was a true believer these are probably the top ten reasons why i believed jws are the true religion.

1. they show love among themselves by not going to war.

not killing your fellow believers in any circumstances, including war, would seem to be a very basic requirement for true christianity.

slimboyfat

Interestingly, while historians have made estimates, the Jehovah's Witnesses likely know the exact figures but choose not to share them.

The exact figures of what, how many “resisted”? You are trying to put an exact number something that is impossible to put an exact number on. Someone who spoke against the regime, went to jail, renounced their faith in custody, was released, later regretted that decision and rejoined. Did they resist, or not? People who broke down under torture and gave up names of their fellow believers. Did they resist, or not? People who reasoned it was proper to lie on forms to fool the Nazis and got released from prison that way. Did they resist or not? Someone who was a JW for social or family reasons but decided it wasn’t worth it when the Nazis came to power. Is that counted as a failure of JWs to resist? People who were true believers but simply couldn’t withstand the terror, or who compromised to save themselves, or their children, or others. Children who were removed from parents and were indoctrinated by the regime. All these scenarios, and many more complicated situations played out countless times. I don’t think we are in a position to judge except to say that any act of resistance was remarkable in the circumstances. We don’t need exact numbers to make the obvious observation that JWs stood out massively. We don’t need an exact figure in order to draw the same moral conclusion as the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum that JWs were an “island of spiritual resistance” and that other churches have had to come to terms with the “widespread complicity” of their leadership and ordinary members.

62

Ten reasons Jehovah’s Witnesses have the true religion (plus a bonus one)

by slimboyfat in

thinking back when i was a true believer these are probably the top ten reasons why i believed jws are the true religion.

1. they show love among themselves by not going to war.

not killing your fellow believers in any circumstances, including war, would seem to be a very basic requirement for true christianity.

slimboyfat

… WW2 demonstrates the dangers or neutrality …

If everyone was neutral there would have been no war, obviously, but you’re entitled to your opinion, notsopeacefulpete. Your entire post is a whole lot of cope, attempting to downplay the stand JWs took in Nazi Germany.

Protestant historian Detlef Garbe described the conduct of JWs in the Third Reich as a “ray of light in a dark age”. The United States Holocaust Memorial Museum called JWs “an island of spiritual resistance”. Former JWs who attempt to deny reality on this do themselves no favours. It’s a sign of being in a bubble. Not everything about JWs is bad. If you can’t straightforwardly recognise opposing the Nazis as a good act it’s maybe time to reflect.

62

Ten reasons Jehovah’s Witnesses have the true religion (plus a bonus one)

by slimboyfat in

thinking back when i was a true believer these are probably the top ten reasons why i believed jws are the true religion.

1. they show love among themselves by not going to war.

not killing your fellow believers in any circumstances, including war, would seem to be a very basic requirement for true christianity.

slimboyfat

StephaneLaliberte this is also a subject I have taken an interest in.

The only real difference was the numbers—there were many more Catholics, and therefore many more traitors and Nazi sympathizers, but the ratios were likely similar.

The ratios are entirely dissimilar. The overwhelming majority of JWs resisted the Nazis whereas only a small number of Protestants and Catholics did so. This is why the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum describes Jehovah’s Witnesses in the Third Reich as:

an island of spiritual resistance to the Nazi demand for absolute German commitment to the state.
https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/jehovahs-witnesses-in-germany-from-the-1890s-to-the-1930s

Whereas it concludes its article about Protestants and Catholics this way:

After 1945, the silence of the church leadership and the widespread complicity of "ordinary Christians" compelled leaders of both churches to address issues of guilt and complicity during the Holocaust—a process that continues internationally to this day.
https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/the-german-churches-and-the-nazi-state

Note the contrast between “an island of spiritual resistance” and “the widespread complicity of ‘ordinary Christians’”.