Proof of two destinies for believers in the Bible, heavenly and earthly

by slimboyfat 59 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • slimboyfat
    slimboyfat

    The JW idea that believers are destined either for heavenly life or for endless life on earth comes in for significant criticism by critics of various kinds. Even some groups, such as the Christadelphians, who share belief in a future paradise earth, don’t share the view that some Christians are destined for life in heaven.

    Yet there is surprisingly quite a lot of evidence in the Bible for the existence of two distinct groups of believers. This is especially evident in the book of Revelation, which makes sense if JWs are correct that this prophetic book projects forward to the period when the second group of believers with an earthly destiny is to be gathered.

    The most obvious indication of two groups of believers is Revelation 7 which contrasts the 144,000 “Israelites”, with the great crowd from every tribe and nation that no one was able to number.

    On top of that, we have Revelation 14.4 where the 144,000 are described as “bought from among mankind as firstfruits”. If these believers are “firstfruits to God and to the Lamb”, that would imply there are other believers who are subsequent fruitage, though not part of this initial group.

    Then there is mention of those who are part of the “first resurrection” in Rev 20.6, who are said to rule as kings with Christ for 1000 years. In verse 5 we were told that “the rest of the dead did not come to life until the 1000 years were ended”. Again, clearly we have two separate groups of believers, only one of which rules with Christ.

    Which all makes sense when you consider that, in order for there to be kings and priests, there must be subjects of the kingdom for those kings and priests to rule over. The prospect of being rulers of the nations was held out to Israel. When they rejected the privilege it was given to another nation producing fruits, (Matt 21.43) the “Israel of God”. (Gal 6.16)

    One more indication of two groups of believers comes in Rev 22.17: “the spirit and the bride keep saying, ‘Come!’ and let anyone hearing say, ‘Come!’ and let anyone thirsting come; let anyone who wishes take life’s water free.” Here, the bride of Christ extends the invitation to others to benefit from life’s water free. This must be the second group of believers indicated by the “great crowd”, and “the rest” who came to life at the end of the 1000 years.

    What about Ephesians 4.4 that says: “you were called to the one hope of your calling”. Doesn’t this show that there are not two groups of believers? Two things to note about that: 1) when Paul wrote this letter there were only anointed Christians at that time, one group, and 2) although the anointed and the great crowd have different destinies, they both exercise faith in Jesus as the basis for their shared hope of salvation from sin and death. So in that sense perhaps JWs should drop the language of “two hopes”, or “heavenly” and “earthly hopes”, if that terminology causes any stumbling. It might be better to talk about two destinies for believers, either ruling with Christ in heaven, or subjects of the kingdom on earth, which is based on a range on biblical statements including the few reviewed above.

  • KerryKing
    KerryKing

    IF there are two groups with separate destinations/jobs then I think people need to be humble enough to accept that it's very likely the faithful Jews, whether from before or after Jesus' death, who will be part of the 144000.

    Insisting otherwise is the same as attempting to claim the best seat at the wedding banquet. Let the host assign you your seat, just make sure you're there on time and in the door with your invite.

  • FreeTheMasons
    FreeTheMasons

    And really, whichever part of an inheritance we inherit, all have God as Father.

    All will see Him and be with Him and love Him and be loved by Him.

    The whole reason for the arrangement has to do with healing the family. It is unthinkable for Him to be divided from His kids for all eternity, and yet the Devil keeps trying to promote that lie through various twisted teachings.

    Having two different assignments in the family doesn't mean one group or assignment doesn't get to be with God. To the contrary - the whole reason for that assignment is to bring the other part of the group closer so all can be together.

    "All things are possible with God."

    Physical humans will get to hang out with God in the way that is most appropriate - for Him to visit in a materialized body. He didn't spend so long creating the earth for nothing. He loves it here!

    If He was to not visit for all eternity, that would be like hell. He's not a "hell" person. The Devil is the one teaching the "hell" stuff.

    What point would there being alive forever on earth and being separated from God? That doesn't make any sense. Life without Him would be purposeless. He is the reason we're alive. It's just a given that He's coming back.

    The 144,000 are just part of a work assignment, like Joseph was part of a work assignment. He helped feed the kids. But being with his dad was what he missed the most.

    Jehovah is coming back.

  • FreeTheMasons
    FreeTheMasons
    the faithful Jews

    Faithful Jews became Christians. And later on anyone who joined Jesus became "a Jew" by means of being in union with him as head. He is Jewish. Those "married" to him in the covenant inherit the name.

    Jesus' revelation to John showed that there would be "Jews" from all backgrounds and that the number of the 144,000 would not be filled until just prior to the great tribulation.

  • slimboyfat
    slimboyfat

    KerryKing, Yes, certainly, the Jews were given first refusal, and some did accept the invitation, when the covenant was kept in force “for one week” (Dan 9.27) until 36 CE. But as a whole the nation of Israel did not accept the invitation and therefore it was given to a new nation producing fruits, (Matt 21.43) the “Israel of God”. (Gal 6.16). Paul describes this process in Rom 11 where he says that people from the nations had to be grafted in, so that the number of “Israel” could be complete. (Rom 11.25, 26)

  • Sea Breeze
    Sea Breeze

    This is really NOT really news. Two-thirds of Evangelicals are Millinial, as opposed to Amillinial. Amillinialism started with Augistine in the early 400's.

    The early church leaders trained by the apostles were all Millinial. For those of you that don't know: Millinial means you believe in an literal earthy 1000 yr. reign of Christ.

    Amillinial means you think this age or time period is symbolic. This is the view of the RCC and several other big name demoninational churches.

  • slimboyfat
    slimboyfat

    Does that mean they believe there are two groups of believers, one that rules with Christ as kings and priests in heaven, and the other that lives as subjects of the kingdom in paradise on earth? Because that’s what I’m talking about.

  • Jeffro
    Jeffro

    Tacking on ‘for believers’ doesn’t actually justify calling any of it ‘proof’.

  • Jeffro
    Jeffro
    Yet there is surprisingly quite a lot of evidence in the Bible for the existence of two distinct groups of believers. This is especially evident in the book of Revelation, which makes sense if JWs are correct that this prophetic book projects forward to the period when the second group of believers with an earthly destiny is to be gathered.

    As far as ‘believers’ go, JWs couldn’t have it more wrong anyway. Revelation indicates a great crowd in heaven that rules as kings and priests for a thousand years and 144,000 ruling as kings forever from New Jerusalem on earth.

  • peacefulpete
    peacefulpete

    Your mistake is assuming a single 'Biblical' opinion regarding the future of the earth. The classic Jewish notion that they would become vindicated and dominate the world lingered in some Christian quarters but lapsed away in others. Revelation as a collection of reworked Jewish apocalypse scenes retains the idea that after a global war of evil the mirror Jerusalem would descend and bridge heaven and earth. In reading the abundant Jewish apocalyptic writings and commentary one comes away with a blending of Persian and Greek concepts. The Persian belief in a global battle between good and evil combined with the Greek concept of a decaying natural world ending then renewed in cyclical fashion. Many of these writings use expressions such as 'great conflagration' or 'rolling up' of the universe to be followed by a new heavens and new earth. They did not mean these as simple expressions referring to government and society, no, the very fabric of the universe was refined by fire or violent change and replaced/renewed/regenerated. As this eschatological concept developed a few centuries prior to the Jewish Messianic concept, the two have an inevitable but loosely defined connection. Jewish scholars have debated the minutia for nearly 2000 years.

    Unsurprisingly there were subtle and not so subtle differences in the details, objectives and the role of Israel in all this. It follows the same is true of the NT. It would seem obvious that some texts assume a similar conflagration and replacement concept. But in other circles the shift away from eschatological thinking is obvious. The Gospel John goes to pains to avoid language of future imminent destruction and features what's called a 'realized eschatology', the Kingdom was here and now, and his disciples could be part of it.

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