Posts by Etude

28

help please

by Scooby in

i just wanted to see if anyone out there could help with my situation.

my husband and i are inactive witnesses very very recently.

we separated as we are both very unhappy with our lives.. my husband was raised a jw and has gotten flack his whole life by elders.

From your description, it sounds like your husband is still “on the fence” even though you’re both inactive, hence his guilt. Not being able to repudiate the Organization altogether, it may be a mistake to push him out by confronting him (by whatever means) with anti-Watchtower information and sentiment. It’s a stage that many of us have gone through were we have problems with the organization but still think that it’s the “Truth” and are reluctant to leave it. Something has to take its place. Whatever that is, maybe a realization of its fundamental flaws or severe shake up in a belief in God, it has to come to the individual himself and not pushed upon him or her. But that takes time. I suppose a counselor would be good if he/she concentrates on positive individual worth rather than on the negative aspects of what happened to him, to both of you. Sometimes when confronted in a negative way, we tend to be defensive, even about the very thing we have a problem with.

In spite of the acceptance that I have acquired through the years that the Watchtower and the Jehovah’s Witnesses are a cult, it does not cease to enrage me when I hear about situations such as your husband’s. I guess most people with any shred of humanity will react the same way at an obvious injustice. The problem is that Witnesses have been trained to suppress their humanity for the sake of the Organization. I think everyone’s comments are right on the money: There’s jealousy in the elder’s actions; There’s pettiness; There’s local interpretation and inconsistency, and there’s lack of Christian love as we have learned it from them. It would be great if he could realize these things for himself and see the Organization for what it really is.

Going to a counselor wouldn’t hurt. I do recommend that you interview the person (perhaps several) first and explain the situation in order to determine if that individual would be suitable to help. Learn all you can about the serious issues that have put in doubt the infallibility of the Jehovah’s Witnesses’ biblical interpretations and gently provide them to your husband. You also need to be patient with him and give him time to accept his situation. If he kowtows and stays, he and you will continue to be unhappy. You sound like you love him enough to hang in there. Hang in there! I guess the adage still rings true that wisdom is found in the voice of many. Even if not all of the advice is sound, one is in a better position to take what is good and learn from what is not. We’re here for you.

Etude.

11

The good, the bad and the ugly.

by Etude in

i had posted some comments on another thread about good and bad witnesses in response to a request, but i think i waited too long and the thread died before anyone read post.

i'd like to start a new thread just to share some of my experiences, particularly at bethel.

here's the previous post: .

Etude

OK, Nighwarrior. I guess juicy is subjective. I was witness to my share of scandals. While I was there, there was a witch-hunt to find anyone who was involved in a homosexual scandal. Many people left, including a good friend who had arrived in my group back 74. I know it was a witch-hunt because my fried told me all about it. And when he left, he went back to his congregation without any problems. Had he done something wrong, he would have been censured. Ill get to that at another time. Im also looking for a photo of something that happened at one of the buildings (the old Squibb building) that I think might surprise some people. Typically, it was not publicized at all by the WT and only mildly spread through the congregations. Stay tuned. In the mean time, heres another excerpt of my story. This takes place early on before I was baptized:

Sometimes I wonder how I ever became a Witness when I consider some of the things I went through. For example: on several occasions when Johnny would come and pick me up to go to the Book Study, instead of going to the regular one in our area, he would suggest we go to the one that Juan attended. After three or four of these arrangements, it turned out to be too late to attend the Book Study on time. Our trips to Juans place for the purpose of going to a Book Study had become more of social get-together. Wanting to make use of the time, since we had missed the Book Study, it was suggested (I dont remember how) that we go for a cruise. For whatever excuse, we ended up at the Bowery district in lower Manhattan. Ultimately what happened was that we ended up watching the hookers from our vehicle picking up clients on the street. At one point Johnny, on a dare, went up to a stand on a corner where there was a prostitute hustling. He just wanted to see how far she would go. Sure enough, she approached him and as she leaned over the counter, I could see she wasnt wearing any panties. They had a big laugh about that. Since I had not experienced anything like that before, for me, it was like watching a car crash. You know whats going to happen, but you cant turn away and not look.

It turns out, as I later learned, that Johnny had been censured in the congregation because he had taken Alma, his fiance to a motel to have sex. Apparently, the whole thing had been kept quiet and their engagement had continued. I do remember listening to that little voice in the back of my head while prowling around the Bowery saying: This isnt right. In spite of that, I plodded on and matured in the organization. It was probably around 1969 and I had come to the point where I was going to have the privilege of giving my first talk in the second school. This was usually conducted in a back room of the Kingdom Hall with a small group of brothers and sisters and not in the main hall in front of the congregation. That was prime time. I had relied upon my High School training to compose a short discourse on some topic and I thought that I had made a good try. I dont remember whether it was good or not, I was extremely nervous, but Ill never forget the overseers, brother Chastains, criticism of my presentation. He asked the audience: What is the first thing we have to do when we compose a sermon? Hes answer was Think! Meaning that I hadnt. Regardless of how poor my presentation was, I thought that his comment was tactless. In fact, another brother, Rene Vasquez who had been a missionary in Spain, made additional comments to attempt to soothe the situation and even offered a bit of praise for my effort. Had it not been for that, I would have been totally discouraged to give any further talks.

It was at that Queens Crescent Street Spanish congregation that I met Raymond Franz, who later became a member of the Governing Body and Thomas Cabeen, who lived at Bethel, the home for the mostly specially called youth at the headquarters of the Watchtower Society in Brooklyn Heights, N.Y. I remember asking Thomas once while he and Raymond Franz and a few other people were crowed in a car on our way to field service: Tom, whats Bethel like? He sort of chuckled and said: Its like nothing youve ever experienced before! Its like no other place on Earth. Even then, I understood that he had had experiences that would categorize the place as not being close to Eden. I accepted that and strangely enough, I didnt judge him negatively for it. After all, he knew what he was saying, without saying too much.

Etude.

Looking for Kerry Miller

by Etude in

does anyone know kerry miller, formerly from wakeeney, ks and port st. lucie, fl?

we knew each other from bethel in new york in the mid '70s and we were roomates in steamboat springs, co back in '79.

i don't know if he's still at it (a jw).

Etude

Does anyone know Kerry Miller, formerly from Wakeeney, KS and Port St. Lucie, FL? We knew each other from Bethel in New York in the mid '70s and we were roomates in Steamboat Springs, CO back in '79. I don't know if he's still at it (a JW). Nevertheless, I would dearly like to talk to him. Thanks.

Etude.

36

Are ALL criticisms of the Society justified?

by logansrun in

jw
friends

let me start by saying that i deplore much of the teachings of the watchtower and am convinced that it is not "the truth.

" either through ignorance, error or deliberate action they have caused great heartache for thousands and unknown heartache for millions.

i have thoroughly disconnected myself from their teachings and would rightly speak out against what i know to be harmful in that organization.

Etude

Hmmm A lot of good points here, Logansrun, but stay tuned. One of the reasons I joined the Jehovahs Witnesses organization was because I thought I had found the TRUTH. Im a lover of the truth. When I found I didnt have it after all and subsequently my world crushing down upon me, I because a skeptic. I took a course in Logic in college in order to get to the fundamental question of what is truth. So, I can see why one should not accept outright statements as true about anything without checking the validity of the facts (that is called deductive reasoning). But thats a personal responsibility (caveat emptor). I saw quite a bit of debating on the subject of how the Organization is portrayed right here on this newsgroup on another thread. There was one difference though, most people spoke about individuals being good and/or bad in the Organization. To me, thats a great distinction. I contributed for the argument that there is a great deal of genuinely good people in the Jehovahs Witnesses organization.

I havent been on this newsgroup for long and Ive only joined nearly 20 years after I left the Organization. And when you say: It's not like the GB gathers together on Wednsday mornings and says, It's not like the GB gathers together on Wedn[e]sday mornings and says, "Let's see...how can we make people miserable and lie to them?", I completely agree with you. But the fact that they are not purposeful or duplicitous in their decisions and edicts for the flock does not make them any less responsible for all the hurt and consequences that ensue. Even if they didnt cause any hurt, solely on principle, its very difficult to cast an organization that manipulates history and morality as doing some good. Their deeds negate any good that they may have done. And like Francois, I cant think of anything good that they (as an organization) have done in any community. I can only think of things they have done in order to perpetuate themselves and their doctrines. That does not deny the members capacity for having humane feelings, but Gizmo is right: Im sure Hitler loved and was kind to some people too. So are some All-American individuals who dote on their children and grandchildren and yet go out and lynch another person because he or she happens to be black. Our laws allow people to be put to death for that. But, those are examples of individuals, and as in the case of Hitler, it does not condemn an entire country (Germany or the U.S.) as all bad. A good parallel would more like a corporation that knowingly is responsible for harming citizens because of a product they make. We punish the corporation and the individuals responsible for such things. Alas, their deeds have not yet caught up with the Watchtower Society, at least on the obvious things like the pedophile issue.

I dont see a way to make them pay on the moral side of things (not the policies that actually violate the law). As a condition for coming back into the fold after I was disfellowshiped, I told the elders that I had written to the Organization asking them to explain to me why hundreds of people (Witnesses) had died in Malawi for not being able to carry a political party membership in violation of Jehovahs law and why brothers in Mexico were able to obtain with an overt bribe a card that certified that they had served in the military without violating their conscience. The Societys answer to my letter was to send the elders over to my house. The elders answer to my question was to refer me to the Society for an answer. Willingly or unwillingly, purposefully or ignorantly, theres too much blood on their hands and I cant think of any good that they have done that can cancel that. Yes, they taught me something about the Bible, but I think had I not met them, I would have learned any way. Most people are not confident of that, just like my mother, and thats probably the main reason why she doesnt leave. She doesnt think she can find good biblical instruction anywhere else. It shows how good a job the Witnesses have done on her.

Bottom line is that we should be cautions as snakes when it comes to swallowing anybodys statements as truth. Im the same way when I read a newspaper. The Watchtower house has to come down. Just because it has plenty of room and modern conveniences does not make it livable. Its foundation is sinking and its structural integrity will not pass inspection. I would hope that something takes its place. I would love to be reunited with all the good people I knew while I was there. But I would not walk through the door of that house until its rebuilt and the people responsible for its present conditions are evicted.

Etude.

5

New Audio/Video Website for JW's

by Jourles in

jw
friends

in order to lend a helping hand, i put up a new website dedicated to housing audio and video files related to the watchtower society.

currently, all media files are related to pedophilia.

you can access this new website by going to http://www.dirtclod.com.

Etude

Thank you!

Etude

15

What was your most embarassing moment?

by kwijibo in

mine was at the kh giving a talk - got muddled up and almost said the f word into the mike.

in fact - i said it in my mind or under my breath and then panicked because i thought i had said it out loud but the audience didn't seem to react so i new i must have not said it out loud.

i wonder if anyone noticed me breaking into a cold sweat........... anyone got any more?

Etude

Wait just a minute! You wore pants to the meetings? Where the heck is that congregation? It must be here in California, certainly not back East or the South. That's reason for disfellopshiping in some places. Maybe they can be worn in Alaska, with a matching double-botton wolverine parka.

Etude.

45

Disassociating myself ...

by dedalus in

well, it had to come to this eventually.. this winter my wife and daughter and i celebrated christmas with my in-laws, with whom we currently live (high school english teachers don't make much money!).

my in-laws have been inactive for about two years, and this year, they decided to celebrate the holidays.

one reason for this is that their son, who is eight, has multiple disabilities -- can't see, trouble hearing, other, quite sever, issues -- and christmas, with its presents and wrapping and loud carols and trees and wreaths is, well, a very accessible experience for him, the way, say, my kingdom ministry and the watchtower are not.. well, as a household we went all out.

Etude

Dedalus:

I'm so enraged I could spit sparks. Those bastards! I would hope that something happens to those elders to make them realize their insensitivity. I'm not vindictive and don't whish them a tragedy. But at this very moment, I don't really care if it did.

I hope you're dad comes around and your brother-in-law improves in health. How's you father-in-law fairing and what does he say about what happened with the elders at the door?

Etude

37

FARTING IN THE KINGDOM HALL.

by nightwarrior in

i was lead to beleive that cleanlinness was next to godliness,that jehovah is a clean god, .

as we as a family sat down behind ( being the operative word ) a couple of elderly sisters ,arriving late we took the only seats available,even then we caused disruption as we even i were fighting over the seats as to where one would sit ,sure enough i allways seemed to end up in the firing line of these elderly fat arsed sisters,whom allways ended up farting in your face,the smell was so strong that you could actualy taste the stench it in the air 10 minutes later,i allways felt sick ,my children grinning .

how did you cope yourself

Etude

The only specific experience I can recall regarding farting in the Kingdom Hall, aside from the occasional stealthy odorific breeze that I might have encountered while sitting or going up and down the isle with a microphone, has to do with a child, of course. She was (about 6 years of age) sitting somewhere in the middle of the Hall next to her mother. I was sitting about 2 or 3 rows behind where I could actually see her. It was a Sunday afternoon Watchtower study, you know, when you're kinda groggy and bored and the subject is not too interesting. Somewhere in the middle of the hour, I could see the little girls shoulders shake a bit. She was in the middle of a heave to let out this big sneeze. Unfortunately, she tried to contain it and it backfired. I guess she was packing a lot of punch in it because she almost seemed to lift off the chair at the same time the rumble from her backside echo through the Hall and kinda woke everybody up. She quickly turned to her mother in an explicative manner and said: "Mommy, it just came out!" I lost it right then and there, although I was able to compose myself just long enough to walk out and not have a "back firing" experience myself.

Etude.

28

My Ghost Experience This Morning

by rem in

i had a terrifying experience this morning and i'm writing about it as a lesson on how we perceive things.

this type of thing has happened to me several times in my life, but since it just happened again this morning, and ghosts seem to be a topic of interest on this board, i thought i'd share it.. i was staying at a friend's house while she was away.

this place is an old apartment complex built in the 1920's in san francisco.

Etude

Rem:

I think I experienced something like that many years ago when I was a teenager. What caught my attention about your tale are the following three things: 1) you woke up in an alert state; 2) you said you were paralyzed and 3) the sense of fear hit you before or just at the time everything else unfolded. I experienced the exact same symptoms. It was about 4:00 AM and I had fallen asleep on the couch in our living room. I woke up like I had not been sleeping and then started to hear the wood floors squeak and the doorknob turn while unable to speak or move. It scared the guacamole out of me.

I may be deviating a bit from the subject, but all this makes me think about some disorders that many people experience. Im pragmatic and believe in science. So much so, that I feel perfectly comfortable in saying I dont know if there isnt a reasonable explanation instead of making one fit. So I explain our common experience (with some available scientific evidence), as the result of recreations by the brain, as communicated by chemical messengers to the Limbic system while it kept it secret from you cerebrum and motor centers (phew!) But going beyond, people who experience Turrets Syndrome, who are manic compulsive or have Schizophrenia obviously demonstrate something thats way beyond their control in a permanent and devastating way. In the case of Schizophrenia, his or her delusions are so vivid and real, the person cant help but react to the voices and the visions. You and I (and some of the other commentators here) are lucky that we only experience a freaky moment of this type a few times in our lives. Those other poor people I just described have to live with their condition on a daily basis, which takes me to my point: Were supposed to have free will. How much free will does someone with Turrets Syndrome or manic compulsion or Schizophrenia has? More over, its obvious in my opinion that, what makes us who we are and makes us do the things we do is communicated via chemical messages that our bodies produce. In other words, we are at the mercy of our own body chemistry.

The conditions I mentioned are obvious and extreme, but I think that there are many, many shades in between that make us either have an addictive personality (or not), or behave a certain way and lose control temporarily (or not). That is something I dont think the organization of Jehovah's Witnesses and their governing body will ever get. When someone cant help what they do, often the organization reacts intolerantly and will disfellowship the individual. All of this makes me wonder how much self will we really have. I guess to put it simply, thats what imperfection is, thats what the Bible calls sin. Thank God that Jesus knew that. Its a shame that the Watchtower organization does not. If it's something like a "possession", it has to be demons. If it deals with morality, it has to be the person's fault.

Etude.

11

The good, the bad and the ugly.

by Etude in

i had posted some comments on another thread about good and bad witnesses in response to a request, but i think i waited too long and the thread died before anyone read post.

i'd like to start a new thread just to share some of my experiences, particularly at bethel.

here's the previous post: .

Etude

Thanks for the encouragement, Utopian_Raindrops. I have several pages of my story and I haven't even gotten to the items that really bugged my regarding policies at Bethel. Here are two other excerpts:

On my first day, shortly after I met my first roommate in our quarters on the 7 th floor of 107 Columbia Heights, he proceeded to tell me his rules. Basically he told me that since he was there first, I had to adjust to his ways and not the other way around. I never expected this. I thought that gentle, spiritual people would surround me. I cant blame the Jehovahs Witnesses for my rude awakening. I can only blame my sheltered upbringing. Well, I dont know what bug had crawled up his anus, but I immediately decided that this is not the sort of guy with whom I was going to be buddies. He had been on light duty from work at the bookbindery because he nearly got one of his forearms torn off at one of those machines that puts the covers on the books. Obviously, he didnt follow safety procedures. He was rather surprised and almost hurt 2 weeks later when I announced to him that I was moving in with another brother to the roach-infested Towers Hotel from which the Society was leasing 3 or 4 floors and was also planning to purchase. I guess he figured that because I was a newcomer that I would be at his mercy, lost and looking for orientation. Since I lived in NY, I had taken many tours of the facilities and also knew several Bethelites. This gave me a slight advantage and a little less awe.
I dont think I ever spoke to Nathan Knorr, but I heard enough from him to form an opinion of what kind of person he was. It seemed obvious to me that he called the shots around Bethel and the Organization and that his right hand man was Fred Franz. You must bear in mind that these feelings were half conscious and that even if I fully realized them, it was in a reverent manner. You just dont criticize authority when it seems that awesome. It was early in my Bethel service that the change came which instituted the Elder arrangement in the congregations. It was also about that time that there were changes in the hierarchy and the governing body came really to be. Knorr was not happy about that and it showed from his speeches to the family at breakfast time. I dont know if those events made him more so, but he proved to be insensitive to the point of being cruel. Once, on an open microphone that broadcasted to all the dining rooms in the Bethel complex, he proceeded to chastise a sister who didnt show up to read the daily text out of the year book at breakfast. Naming her, he said something to the effect that she must have better things to do than to show up. Not a couple of days earlier, I had seen that sister nearly pass out as her husband caught her on her way to the floor while she was trying to exit the dining room during the prayer just before breakfast. It turns out she was pregnant and had severe morning sickness. It didnt take an anointed of God to figure out why she didnt show. But even if he didnt know, his derogatory comments were at least not appropriate and were meant to embarrass her in front of the entire Bethel family.

Etude.