Posts by OldSoul

78

What is the truth?

by OldSoul in

jw
friends

pontius pilate asked, and now i'm asking.

i've been reading many topics in here, now i am wondering... what is truth?

i'm both respectful and broadminded enough to allow for any other viewpoint, whether or not i agree.

OldSoul

Dave,

Dave: We need more specifics when someone comes here on a fishing expedition.

Why?

Dave: Asking "what is the truth" gives the impression that you want more facts that are outside of just the Christian concept of it.

I gave some examples of questions that I am specifically interested in, but my interest is not in any way limited to those. I apologize if my topic header was misleading. I did not intend to. I am looking for your "truth."

Dave: What do you hope to accomplish here?

I thought I was pretty specific. I'm trying to find out what's all the hub-bub, Bub. That's it. Trying to find out what there is to leave <i>for</i>, after having read so many threads devoted to what to leave <i>from</i>.

Dave: Steve is a smart man and can take care of himself, he can even take this off the main board if he wishes

I'd be very surprised if Steve ever removed any sincere, thought provoking post from anyone. Censorship is anathema to him. Unless I don't know him anymore, I haven't said or done anything in here that would make him do anything more than bark a chuckle, sigh, sit back and cross his overly-large forearms over his overly-rotund belly, shake his big wooly head at the screen and take a quaff of something from an overly-large stein. When he reads that, his face is gonna crack a grin a mile wide.

Of course, he would be very surprised at my 245 lbs., and my successful career that he often wondered whether...

78

What is the truth?

by OldSoul in

jw
friends

pontius pilate asked, and now i'm asking.

i've been reading many topics in here, now i am wondering... what is truth?

i'm both respectful and broadminded enough to allow for any other viewpoint, whether or not i agree.

OldSoul

Narkissos,

Thanks for the reply. I couldn't imagine worshipping Jehovah any other way. According to the things I have been taught and the things I have researched out for myself, Jehovah has only asked for unwilling service a few times: from Jonah, from a fellow who intended to curse the Israelites, etc. But the examples are few and far between.

In major, he not only asks for, but will only accept willing service. Otherwise, any offering is a lame one. Maybe that's why I am having a hard time understanding you folks in here. I never served for men, and I have always understood that I have both the ability and the responsibility to choose my course.

Like Paul, "I am not conscious of anything against myself, but by this I am not proved righteous." Jehovah is my judge. As long as I am pleasing him, it is a small thing whether I am questioned by human tribunals or by you well-meaning folks. I think that might be the dividing line between those who stay and those who leave... you cared what other humans thought of you to the point that you stopped being true to yourself.

At some point, or in some way you stopped being "true to yourself" and you blame someone else or some organization for that choice. I appreciate the replies. This helped me validate my understanding of what prompts a person to snipe after (or while) leaving, and what prompts a person to try and "save" as many others as possible from this dread organization.

You think many/most of Jehovah's Witnesses are as foolish and shortsighted as you were before you realized the wondrous beauty of our gift of free will. You may be right... I know I have a harder time getting people to understand how precious that gift is than any other Jehovah has given us. My Bible Students progress quickly and I get puzzled stares when asked how I keep getting such progressive students. I simply say, "They choose Jehovah."

Most want the "magic formula" and when I give it to them they don't understand what I said. I'm glad Jehovah overlooks such ignorance.

Respectfully,
B_Ing Invisible

14

John 18 Quid est veritas? - Who was right: Pilate or Jesus?

by Pole in

it's a doctrinal question.

of course the gospel of john may have been written by someone who made this conversation up.

but let's assume it really did take place between pilate and jesus christ.. john 1837"you are a king, then!

OldSoul

It is foreign to me to regard any question as invalid or blasphemy. If God had not wanted us to question, He could certainly have seen to it we didn't.

I don't want this to be taken as my being petty or rude - so, please just chalk it up to rough honesty - I think it is hilarious that so many people are blaming their former inability to think for themselves on... well, anything other than the true cause. In doing so, you still overlook a very basic reality of human existence.

Wherever you believe it came from, you have free will and you always have had it. No one ever stole it from you, because no one can. You have used it as you saw fit. For whatever reason you did so, it was your choice. If you have now made a different choice, why must delight in having done so be labored by so much regret over having chosen less well in the past?

Respectfully,
B_Ing Invisible

78

What is the truth?

by OldSoul in

jw
friends

pontius pilate asked, and now i'm asking.

i've been reading many topics in here, now i am wondering... what is truth?

i'm both respectful and broadminded enough to allow for any other viewpoint, whether or not i agree.

OldSoul

Brenda,

Thank you for the thoughtful reply. Again, it seems that you express your "truth" while allowing me room for mine. I appreciate that respect, and I will not abuse it.

I do have a question regarding your reply to "Is there any such thing as moral and immoral, right and wrong?". Isn't that a paradoxical reply, since we can never foreknow the outcome of our choices? I think Asimov explored that very paradox of Kant's Examples and Maxims in the Robot series. When I read that, my first thought was "Okay, R. Daneel... and how exactly do we determine what will and will not harm?"

So, minus the tongue-in-cheek reference to a fantasy character, barring prescience how can anyone know what will or will not cause harm?

Respectfully,
B_Ing Invisible

78

What is the truth?

by OldSoul in

jw
friends

pontius pilate asked, and now i'm asking.

i've been reading many topics in here, now i am wondering... what is truth?

i'm both respectful and broadminded enough to allow for any other viewpoint, whether or not i agree.

OldSoul

Okay. If Gill is right, then this place is exactly what I thought it was. You may not know it, but many of you share some things in common besides a distaste for Jehovah's Witnesses, their teachings, and/or the WTBTS.

Epicureanism, agnosticism, futilitarianism.

Gill, you might argue with the last one, but if you keep asking yourself "To what end?" regarding your choices or your behavior, you will prove to yourself that you are a futilitarian. In an amoral system such as you describe there can be no good or bad, no right or wrong. formerout, Hitler was as much a part of God as you are, his choices equally valid.

It seems to me that if the responses I have received are correct you would also have to admit that nothing anyone does matters. Since they are simply acting based on their truth, the truths of others are irrelevant. If nothing anyone does matters, then no one matters. I see that as a very bleak reality, indeed.

Dave: Why don't you give us "your" definition of "Great Enlightenment" so we know where you are coming from?

Hmm, okay.
Great: remarkable in magnitude, degree, or effectiveness
Enlightenment: having been furnished knowledge, or having been given spiritual insight

So my definition (and Merriam-Webster's) of Great Enlightenment would be "having been furnished knowledge, or having been given spiritual insight to a remarkable degree, in remarkable magnitude, or in a way that is remarkably effective."

Dave: What explanation of "truth" are you looking for?

Any that you have to offer. Maybe Steve can clarify it more. You could say I knew him, yes. I would say I knew him far better than most people did. Maybe I still do know him.

78

What is the truth?

by OldSoul in

jw
friends

pontius pilate asked, and now i'm asking.

i've been reading many topics in here, now i am wondering... what is truth?

i'm both respectful and broadminded enough to allow for any other viewpoint, whether or not i agree.

OldSoul

Thanks for the welcome.

I suppose you only answered one of the questions, but I'm not sure it is really answered. I'll try rephrasing what I read, and you tell me if I got it right. If I understand you correctly, does that mean any who converted to Christianity, or "The Way," from other belief systems wasted their efforts? Do you mean you would recommend leaving Jehovah's Witnesses alone with their pursuits because they seem to need it, but if others recommend destroying the entire organization their views are equally valid?

In view of this confusing paradigm, I raise this question: In such a belief system, is the determination of right and wrong up to each individual?

Respectfully,
B_Ing Invisible

62

Should I teach my kids about Santa Claus? (Lie vs. Harmless Fantasy)

by AlmostAtheist in

jw
friends

my wife and i got on a discussion about something i never would've guessed we'd need to.

she wants to teach our new baby about santa claus, easter bunny, & tooth fairy, but i don't.

of course, as witnesses we never would have taught that, and i have to acknowledge that i may only be reasoning using that old set of values.. i don't want to look into my kid's eyes and tell her something that i know for a fact isn't true.

OldSoul

Have you ever seen, smelled, tasted, touched or felt the non-existence of Santa Claus? Can you prove he doesn't exist? Not trying to be peevish, but what you said is you "know for a fact." Technically, that requires empirical proof.

Maybe this will help you overcome your unwillingness to indulge in fantasy.

Respectfully,
B_Ing Invisible

78

What is the truth?

by OldSoul in

jw
friends

pontius pilate asked, and now i'm asking.

i've been reading many topics in here, now i am wondering... what is truth?

i'm both respectful and broadminded enough to allow for any other viewpoint, whether or not i agree.

OldSoul

Pontius Pilate asked, and now I'm asking. I've been reading many topics in here, now I am wondering... what is truth? I see where many of you have discovered that Jehovah's Witnesses don't have the truth. Okay. I'm both respectful and broadminded enough to allow for any other viewpoint, whether or not I agree. What should one of Jehovah's Witnesses replace their "falsely called knowledge" with? Where should they go away to, exactly?

For instance:
Is God a trinity?
Does man have an immortal soul?
Was Mary a virgin when she miraculously conceived Jesus?
Does God exist?
Is God omniscient?
Does the Bible lie outrightly?
Is God omnipresent?
Although God's principled love is unconditional, are there conditions on God's friendship?
Does it matter what we believe?
Does it matter what we do?
Is there any such thing as moral and immoral, right and wrong?
If so, who sets the standard? Immanuel Kant?
Is God a vindictive bastard bent on confusing and ultimately destroying humanity?
Were we created?

These are some of the basics I would need to know the answers to in order to choose to leave. There are many others besides these. Basically, I don't see any great light in here yet. I see a lot of ego stroking, there's plenty of welcoming others into the fold (which only seems bonded by moderate to intense dislike for an organization).

I see much related to efforts of the WTBTS to silence those with differing opinions, so I'll be observing carefully how this is received.

Hopefully someone here can help me figure out where the bitching about a past you never even wanted stops and where the Great Enlightenment starts. I invite anyone to respond, but I am particularly interested in the response of jst2laws.

Respectfully,
B_Ing Invisible

39

Service Year Report of Jehovah?s Witnesses Worldwide

by frogit in

found this in the latest wt.

page 24 wt january 1st 2005.

?starting this year, the service year report of jehovah?s witnesses worldwide will not appear in the january 1 issue of the watchtower.

OldSoul

They probably just wanted to get a lot of Apostates and soon to be Apostates speculating about it while something far more ominous slides by under the radar...

I guess it worked.

13

The Scarlet letter Part 3

by jst2laws in

the scarlet letter part 3

it has been brought to my attention that i have neglected to

finished the scarlet letter series regarding the disfellowshipping of jst2laws and joyzabel.

OldSoul

Farkel: Obviously "Jehovah" wasn't with them. Otherwise, had "Jehovah" been in charge, they would have asked if you had a "recording device."

Okay, so you apparently expect divine guidance on every occasion for anyone God is with. Interesting take. The logical progression from that viewpoint would lead one to believe that God is not with anyone for whom things do not proceed perfectly in the short term.

From this logical progression, we arrive at - God is not with anyone. Anything anyone does that has short term positive outcomes is their own doing and they will die anyway. Likewise, anything anyone does that has short term negative outcomes was their own doing and they will die anyway. My, that's quite a hopeful pair of specs you're sporting! Where can I buy a pair?

Mostly teasing,
Thorn In The Flesh