Posts by OldSoul

48

Can any JWs answered this question?

by Tyre in

when an apostate(a) and jw having a conversation.. a : in genesis 1:26 with who was god speaking to ?

gen 1:26 and god went on to say: let us make man in our image, according to our likeness, and let them have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and the domestic animals and all the earth and every moving animal that is moving upon the earth.

jw : on that verse?

OldSoul

Just in case...

it-1 pp. 1197-1198 IncorruptionUnited with Jesus in the likeness of his resurrection, his joint heirs also are resurrected not merely to everlasting life as spirit creatures but to immortality and incorruption. Having lived, served faithfully, and died in corruptible human bodies, they now receive incorruptible spirit bodies, as Paul clearly states at 1 Corinthians 15:42-54. Immortality therefore evidently refers to the quality of the life they enjoy, its endlessness and indestructibility, whereas incorruption apparently relates to the organism or body that God gives them, one that is inherently beyond decay, ruin, or destruction. It therefore appears that God grants them the power to be self-sustaining, not dependent upon outside sources of energy as are his other creatures, fleshly and spirit. This is a stirring evidence of God’s confidence in them. Such independent and indestructible existence, however, does not remove them from God’s control; and they, like their Head Christ Jesus, continue subject to their Father’s will and directions.—1Co 15:23-28; see IMMORTALITY; SOUL.

OldSoul

48

Can any JWs answered this question?

by Tyre in

when an apostate(a) and jw having a conversation.. a : in genesis 1:26 with who was god speaking to ?

gen 1:26 and god went on to say: let us make man in our image, according to our likeness, and let them have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and the domestic animals and all the earth and every moving animal that is moving upon the earth.

jw : on that verse?

OldSoul

[ DING! ] Order up!

w63 12/1 pp. 733-734 The Gift of Immortality
Although they will enjoy human perfection, they will still be corruptible because they will still be made of flesh that is capable of decaying or of being destroyed by another creature. They will have the power to live indefinitely, but for them to continue living they will have to keep their bodies supplied with food and water. Without these necessities they would waste away. Such is not the case with the few who are made incorruptible by being given the gift of immortality. Their continued existence is not dependent upon outside sources of energy. God has given them the power to be self-sustaining, just as he is. This is one of the factors that contributes to their being superior to the angels. Their superiority is revealed by Paul’s statement to them: “Do you not know that we shall judge angels?”—1 Cor. 6:3.
The angels have the power of an indefinite life, but their life force is not self-sustaining and indestructible. Immortality was never given to them. This is evident from the fact that the resurrected Jesus was the only one of Jehovah’s creatures who possessed it in the days of the apostle Paul, although angels had been living for a very long time before then.

Gee, Schizm, I have known this one since I was eight years old. I'm disappointed. You did say since 1960, right ? I wonder if you'll come back with "since 1970" next. Gotta love that ever-changing light, eh?

OldSoul

63

Can any JW answer OldSoul's 4 questions about JW teachings scripturally?

by kwintestal in

i am waiting for any jehovah's witness to offer support in scripture of these four articles of faith: .

(1) the faithful and discreet slave is a class of people, .

(2) that the holy spirit directs organizations in addition to individuals, .

OldSoul

Shadow,

shadow: Do you believe it is possible to gather a group of people and have them work together for some common purpose and not have some authority structure? Is so, could you provide an example?

No, I do not believe that is possible. However, I believe the Bible lays out a clear authority structure. God, Jesus, Holy Spirit, congregations (individual people, not elders—and the Governing Body is completely absent, as is the Faithful and Discreet Slave).

Do I believe that authority structure exists today? Yes. Do I see any indication in Scripture of an earthly authority structure necessary beyond that one? No, not yet. Do you have some Scriptures that indicate a need for Christians to recognize an authority beyond the God, Jesus and the Spirit?

shadow: I disagree with that statement. The stand on neutrality by JW's stands in stark contrast to the stance taken by the great majority of religious groups.

Okay. You are free to disagree. Which sanguinary conflict they could have been "leaders" in? The stated and published stand on neutrality was violated by members of the Governing Body itself, how does Romans 2:1, 2 not apply to them?

Does the presence of true teachings and teachings that are based on the Bible mitigate the presence of false teachings and teachings that are not based on the Bible? If so, how and why?

Besides this, there is contradictory application of their stand on neutrality. Witnesses in Mexico could accept political pary cards while brothers in Malawi were being beaten and killed, sisters being raped, beaten and killed for refusing on the grounds of neutrality. In 1991, the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New York, Inc. joined the mouthpiece of the UN, the UN/DPI and maintained that relationship until apostates called the contradiction to their attention in 2001. The UN/DPI is anything but a neutral organization. So if there is a preaching of neutrality and a punishing for lack of it at the bottom, but not a practice of it at the top...is there neutrality, in truth?

shadow: I have presented scriptural precedents for God's people developing authority structures.

But you haven't demonstrated Scripturally that these men who started a religion on the basis of false prophecy, (Deuteronomy 18:20-22) appeal to pyramidology as proof (Colossians 2:8-10), and authoritative teachings that do not originate with God (1 John 4:1) actually are God's people. That would, I suppose, have to come first.

I'm afraid I can't use works as a method of determining God's people, Matthew 7:21-23; Matthew 24:24; Mark 13:22, 23; and Luke 21:8 warn me not to listen to any who point to works as proof or who say, "the due time has approached."

shadow: I think it is clear that I have a high degree of skepticism about their claims as to how they derived their authority while at the same time postulating that their authority is legitimate when exercised within scriptural bounds.

I am understanding that clearly from your posts, and I think it is a courageous stand to take. One that will eventually lead to your expulsion from the Christian Congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses. So, when someone in your congregation is disfellowhipped are you always aware of the grounds? What about outside your congregation?

When the disfellowhipping is outside scriptural bounds, do you continue to freely seek out and associate with the ones wronged, as Jesus did (John 9:34, 35) or do you limit your association?

It is my understanding that religious authority is not legitimate if they lie about how it is derived, or claim Scriptural support for the claim when they do not have it. Am I understanding that incorrectly? Can you show me evidence of religious authority that God recognized as legitimate that was not authored by him?

Worldwide Security Under the “Prince of Peace” chap. 1 p. 10 The Desire for Peace and Security Worldwide15 It would be out of line with the plain teachings of the Scriptures to believe that God does not have an organization, an organized people, that he exclusively recognizes. Jesus Christ recognized that his heavenly Father had a visible organization.

As I am sure you are well aware, this is far from the singular publication where "honest seekers of truth" can find this claim.

If there are plain teachings of the Scriptures that show Jesus viewed the religious leaders of the Jews as God's organization that he exclusively recognized or that there is such an organization today, please share them.

If not, please explain, Scripturally, how I should view an organization that makes this lying claim and then punishes people, or even threatens to punish (John 9:22), with excommunication for publicly disputing this claim.

Respectfully,
OldSoul

37

She said I seem really bitter about my JW experience....

by Sirona in

jw
friends

.

i was talking to someone at my new job - she has known me for about 3 months and had something like 2 five minute conversations with me about the jws.. she said "you do come across as really bitter about it".. (note she is definately not a jw).. it was a real eye opener, because although i try and educate people about the truth of jws, i didn't think i was "bitter".. what about you?

sirona

OldSoul

Sirona,

Maybe you could specify where your disagreements are directed. Maybe you could make clear that it isn't the people you have a problem with but the dogma and organizational practices.

And admitting to having been hurt by your discoveries could convert the appearance of bitterness into the appearance of pain. The two look so similar sometimes that it is hard to distinguish the difference without being told.

Respectfully,
OldSoul

369

Why naturalism is irrational

by Shining One in

irrational naturalism (#201) .

by henry morris, ph.d. .

abstract .

OldSoul

I like that woman, I tells ya'!

jgnat , your economy of expression is a welcome respite from my longwindedness. Beautifully put!

Respectfully,
OldSoul

P.S. I would like to see the "Fundy Map" demonstrate the style of thought, rather than specifically relate to religious fundamentalism. In my opinion, the invoked authority could be anything if the resulting impact on the thought pattern is the same.

15

Do we have the holy spirit?

by coolhandluke in

jw
friends

this question arose from an argument with a friend of mine who is still in.

do apostates have the holy spirt?.

um, i dunno.

OldSoul

Jesus was an apostate and he sought out those who had been expelled for apostasy, did he have Holy Spirit? (John 9:1-10:18) That should stuff a cob in your friend's yob for him to chew on a while.

Apostasy is in the eye of the beholder.

Respectfully,
OldSoul

369

Why naturalism is irrational

by Shining One in

irrational naturalism (#201) .

by henry morris, ph.d. .

abstract .

OldSoul

Um, Caedes, I allow for even sharp disagreement within the paradigmatic constraints. Why do you think so many skeptics bash [LittleToe's] beliefs in the same way, although they've never met? That was FunkyDerek's question I was attempting to answer...if you disgree that his question has merit, don't put me in the middle . Especially if you think it might be dangerous .

Never witnessed a skeptic's catfight before. Should prove interesting. I await the outcome with bated breath. Now, combatants, to your corners. Keep it clean and come out swinging!

Respectfully,

OldSoul

63

Can any JW answer OldSoul's 4 questions about JW teachings scripturally?

by kwintestal in

i am waiting for any jehovah's witness to offer support in scripture of these four articles of faith: .

(1) the faithful and discreet slave is a class of people, .

(2) that the holy spirit directs organizations in addition to individuals, .

OldSoul

Toreador,

Would you say the Catholic Church went apostate from what was taught by the Apostles?

Yes. I have several Scriptures that demonstrate that for anyone who is interested. Especially do Paul's writing strip authority from groups of men who "rise up" from among congregations and claim to speak for God. The book of Galatians makes this more clear than any other, in my opinion, and it is a relatively short book.

Every codified Christian religion I know of whose doctrine includes a "body of select," "Governing Body," "Clergy," etc. try to use Acts 15 in support of that doctrine. Galatians utterly destroys the notion that Paul viewed the men in Jerusalem that way.

Do you feel there is an ongoing gathering of people at this time in history[?]

Well, if we are still living during the Great Apostasy then there is not an ongoing "gathering," per se, although I am of the opinion that may come in time. If it does it will be unmistakable what is going on and why. No one will have to dance and dodge through Scriptures to try and make a case for what is happening. I would say there is more of an increasing awareness and that those who are becoming more aware are working to increase the awareness of others, whenever they are permitted to by others.

I hope this answers your questions about my current beliefs (pending Scriptural correction by Shadow). If you have more questions or comments/criticism, feel free to pursue them here or by PM.

Respectfully,
OldSoul

63

Can any JW answer OldSoul's 4 questions about JW teachings scripturally?

by kwintestal in

i am waiting for any jehovah's witness to offer support in scripture of these four articles of faith: .

(1) the faithful and discreet slave is a class of people, .

(2) that the holy spirit directs organizations in addition to individuals, .

OldSoul

Shadow,

It seems to me that you are trying to apply one standard to the Catholic claim to authority and another to the Governing Body claim to authority. With the Catholic claim, you address teachings, lack of morality, and the fact they do not defend the Bible. These are not focused on the position, they are focused on the validity of the claim of authority. Which is the same approach I am trying to use with the Governing Body.

Shadow: The Catholic Church is not living up to scriptural standards. They have often been leaders in the most sanguinary conflicts in human history. They have compromised on morality and defense of the Bible itself.

I submit that the same is true of the Governing Body, to the degree that their teaching contradict or cannot be based on the Bible, and to the degree that they have engaged in behavior opposed to their own teachings (10-year voluntary Association to the UN/DPI).

They have neither been around long enough nor become powerful enough to be able to be leaders in sanguinary conflicts, so there is no basis for knowing what they would do in that circumstance. However, I consider it immoral in the extreme to punish someone with excommunication for disagreeing with them, or even for simply challenging their dogma for Scriptural support. Do you consider that a moral stand that they take?

You mentioned this proviso:

Shadow: If it is determined that JW's as a group are God's people (Isa 2, Mic 4, other scriptures previously cited showing existence of opposing groups)

Their Association to the UN/DPI violated their understanding of both the principles you direct attention to. They were Associated to (members of) the UN/DPI as recently as 2001, this is not ancient history. They have not admitted that it was wrong to Associate to the UN/DPI in the first place, they only admit that the "Criteria for Association with the DPI contain some language that [they] cannot subscribe to."

They continue to minimize their wrong, when according to the standards they hold others to, submitting the Application to Associate constituted disassociation from the teachings of Jehovah's Witnesses. (od p. 155, paragraph 2) That is, unless the UN/DPI is not "a secular organization with objectives contrary to the Bible" that is "under judgment by God." I am reminded of Matthew 23:4. And I apply Romans 2:1, 2.

Shadow, I am beginning to suspect this conversation will end with you stating that you are convinced they are God's people and have God's authority, and I will still be asking for Scripture to establish that basis for authority. Do you have Scriptures to support the teachings on the authority of the Faithful and Discreet Slave, from which the authority of the Governing Body supposedly derives? If not, for what reason (gr. logikos, logos Romans 12:1; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, 2; 1 Corinthians 13:11; 1 Peter 3:15) should I view them as having valid authority?

I can't blindly credit them with authority from God any more than I can blindly credit any other religious authority with authority from God. I don't see Scriptural proof of any degree, relative or otherwise, of authority from God being vested in a class of people who have authority to vest it in a Governing Body. I need Scripture to support this claim of authority, not to support authority in general. Can you provide any?

Respectfully,
OldSoul

369

Why naturalism is irrational

by Shining One in

irrational naturalism (#201) .

by henry morris, ph.d. .

abstract .

OldSoul

FunkyDerek,

Why do you think so many skeptics bash your beliefs in the same way, even though they've never met?

I think it is because disbelief in reality extending beyond our physical reality would cause very similar thoughts to arise in defense of that disbelief. These arguments are not lacking in rationale, so they proceed along similar lines and eventually end at similar conclusions on similar bases.

Unlike experiences had by subjects from cultures as varied as someone who lives in the Okeefenokee swamp and a Tibetan monk, inductive reasoning follows rules of thought. Skeptics are, to a person as far as I know, of a scientific bent and all use the identical method for arriving at conclusions. Group Think tends to produce predictably similar results from those subjected to it.

They may have never met in person, but there is unqeustionably a meeting of the minds among them. The source of this Group Think is filtering every experience and account through the Scientific Method, which is self-limited to exploration of physical reality. Therefore, the opinions such persons would have of anything that falls outside their paradigm would obviously be similar and their arguments against would all derive from the box they have put their thoughts in.

Respectfully,
OldSoul