Posts by TheListener

57

Oh, Schizm! (Daniel 11:35)

by AuldSoul in

schizm: here's something for you to consider, which you will no doubt disagree with, but that shows that the wts will refine its thinking on these issues:

and some of those having insight will be made to stumble, in order to do a refining work because of them and to do a cleansing and to do a whitening, until the time of [the] end; because it is yet for the time appointed.

-- daniel 11:35 .

TheListener

Well, that was a fun read.

15

Zone Overseers (does anyone know the details?)

by slimboyfat in

i would like to know a bit more about zone overseers, the office and its power.

they seem to visit various branches (presumably each oversees 3 to 4 branches) to make sure everything is in order.

the famous visit of jack barr to ireland in the wake of the ray franz induced apostasy in that branch is an example of how a zone visit works.

TheListener

freetosee, that is my understanding exactly. Individuals act as a zone overseer while on assignment and when they return from assignment they are no longer a zone overseer. It is not a permanent appointment as is elder or ministerial servant.

18

Greg Stafford releases JWD 3

by AliveinChrist in

greetings group .

i saw today that stafford is going to be releasing a third addition of his jehovahs witnesses defended publication at a pre-sale price, on his web site at http://www.elihubooks.com/ .

it will be of interest to those of us who have read his publications to see what changes will be in version 3 that were not in version 2, since the release of his three dissertations book, which was a more candid look at the history of the wt history and doctrinal changes.

TheListener

That website has been promising a new book for some time now. If it actually comes out I will check it out. Greg has been kind of quiet for a while now. I think some of his writings got him into hot water.

15

Zone Overseers (does anyone know the details?)

by slimboyfat in

i would like to know a bit more about zone overseers, the office and its power.

they seem to visit various branches (presumably each oversees 3 to 4 branches) to make sure everything is in order.

the famous visit of jack barr to ireland in the wake of the ray franz induced apostasy in that branch is an example of how a zone visit works.

TheListener

Slimboy, can you put the quote about zone overseers up here?

110

WT desparate: Aug 15 WT- In Our Next Issue: When A Loved One Leaves Jehovah

by truthseeker in

jw
friends

no, i don't have this article yet, it will appear in the sep 1, 2006 wt.

it may even be a wt study article.. in the august 15 watchtower, the box "in our next issue" has three forthcoming articles, and one of them is "when a loved one leaves jehovah".

of interest, it's not when a loved one leaves the society, it's jehovah.. will keep you posted.

TheListener

Is the flock being softened up for new light?:

I believe the softening has been going on for at least the last year and a half.

March 2005 - Remember, this is when the new OM book was released. The text in the new OM book changed the announcement for DF/DA. It didn't change the status of the individual who receives the judgment, but how the congregation heard the announcement. No more do the friends officially know who da'd and who was df'd. A letter was read at the announcement of the release. Here is what I posted on Monday, March 21, 2005 "The short letter basically said that dubs recognize that there are thousands of organizations in the world but that only one has Jahs spirit and is following the bible accurately. The letter mentioned the simplification for announcements regarding df'd and da's but didn't get into any specifics at all about what that meant. The letter didn't address any detailed policy changes. "

Summer 2005 (to my best recollection) - We had a written review (once I get to my KMs I'll check on the date) and it had a question regarding the difference between "drifting away", "falling away" and "drawing away". Remember? I cannot remember the source material for the question but it is of note that they make a definite distinction about how someone leaves the truth.

2006 - various WT articles discussing following the F&DS without question. Mentioning those that doubt should have more faith. Article even mentioned that at times the F&DS decisions may not make sense to us - do what they say anyway.

2006 - The WTS is reviewing the new OM book during the School and Service meetings a few pages at a time. Thus pushing the obedience factor higher.

Between the theological groundwork laid in 2005 articles and OM book and the obedience groundwork laid and being laid currently in the OM review, District Convention, WT articles and CO talks I'd say the softening up of the flock has been underway for awhile and something new is coming.

What is it? Who knows. But, I venture a guess that it has to do with inactive ones who refuse to become reactivated. At what point when someone refuses to be reactivated into the congregation will the WTS consider that person as having "drawn away" - only the WTS knows. Others have said this already and I think they're right.

imho.

17

Greek Scriptures Apply Only to Annointed?

by Perry in

i was expressing some excitement about some feature of the promises in the nt with an elder shortly before my baptism when he interrupted me and said, "now, you do know that the greek scriptures apply to 144,000 first and then only to us by extension".

does anyone know where this doctrine is stated in wt literature?

any help appreciated.

TheListener

Roddy,

I run up against the same questions. My question has always been : What purpose will the earth serve once everyone is in heaven?

This is one of the teachings that I'm not sure I know how to refute or if it's right.

I do know this:

The OT scriptures use metaphors and such a lot for describing things. There are as many metaphors saying something will last forever or time indefinite when that wasn't really true - it was just a colloquial expression. The scriptures about the earth being here to time indefinite - maybe they're just metaphorical too?

Adam & Eve had a direct relationship with God with no mediator. We can have that too (after the 1,000 year reign) - I don't see how knowing exactly where that relationship occurs is so important. Earth or heaven? We'll be completely satisfied either way.

On the other hand, God did put Adam and Eve on earth and created animals and plants. He told them to become fruitful and fill the earth. So, maybe our final destination will be an earth like Adam and Eve had.

?????

64

I'm new here

by Keeli in

this seemed like a likely place to introduce myself.

i live in oregon and was disfellowshipped a couple of years ago.

i never went back to meetings and i don't intend to go back.

TheListener

Welcome Keeli. I'm glad you're moving on with your life and look forward to your input on the board.

23

Possible New news

by why144000 in

jw
friends

there has been a lot of discussion regarding some 'news' to be released later in the year.

i have no inside whispers however i think that, if something new happens, it will be in regard to 'faders'.

many of us have faded and not attended meetings for some time.

TheListener

Rockhound, I like your idea - because it's nice. But, the Society isn't in the business of nice. They are in the business of placing WT and AW and books. If they remove the pressure for that type of witnessing work their number of placements will drop instantly. They can't afford to not move the merchandise. Although I agree, they should review Ray Franz's article from the late '70s about sacred service and how encompassing it really is.

I think the new light will have to do with inactivity. It's a simple matter to say anyone who is not active is not a Jehovah's Witness. The main thrust of being a witness is supposed to be preaching the word. So, if you're not preaching then you're not a Jehovah's Witness (I'm sure exceptions will be made for those who are mentally ill or infirmed).

IMHO this will not halve the number of witnesses. Most witnesses go out at some point during the month even if it is just for one hour. Most witnesses who don't go out know enough to report one hour.

Don't forget, it takes 6 months to become inactive. Until then you're irregular. That gives the elders plenty of time to bring you back before you become inactive.

19

Arminianism

by TheListener in

what are the similarities and differences between arminiansim and jw's?.

one key similarity i've found is that in arminianism a certain few are chosen by god for salvation.

seems similar to the 144,000 doctrine.

TheListener

Narkissos,

I can see what you mean about setting pelegianism aside. It seems that pelegianism is very narrow in scope. The main (and apparently only?) doctrine being that man can work for his own salvation with God without the need of Christ's ransom sacrifice (which was merely a good example;as adam was a poor example).

Whereas arminiansim seems to envelop several key doctrines rather than resting on one. It really seems that the witnesses are not alone in being arminians but for the most part all non-calvinist protestant religions fall mostly under arminianism.

Also, it just seems to me that the witnesses are very very arminianistic (I think I made that word up) and even take arminianism to the extreme; as discussed in an earlier post.

Little Toe,

I remember some time ago you said you leaned toward calvinistic thinking. I know you added in some other theological names as well, but, I have a question. What arminian doctrines would a Calvinist most likely not agree with (I know not everyone is the same so generalities would be fine)?

19

Arminianism

by TheListener in

what are the similarities and differences between arminiansim and jw's?.

one key similarity i've found is that in arminianism a certain few are chosen by god for salvation.

seems similar to the 144,000 doctrine.

TheListener

I can't thank you enough Narkissos for bearing with me (again).

Let's see if I get this right: In pelegiansim and arminianism God forsees and knows and is prescient that certain individuals will have faith and be justified/sanctified.

In Augustinianism and Calvinism God CAUSES ones to have faith and become justified/sanctified.

That is a big difference and I see how the witnesses fall under the category of pelegianism.

Follow up question. I'm sure that I learned that a major difference between Presbyterians and Methodists is just this point, predestination. Did God forechoose individuals or did he just have knowledge of certain individuals. Presbyterians believe in God forechoosing certain ones and Methodists believe in God foreknowing certain ones would be saved.

Why does this have to be so hard and why do we have to use such long and difficult words.