Posts by borgfree

26

Former Elders and Friendly Fire

by jst2laws in

jw
friends

i fought many years from inside as an independent spirit trying to change or at least mitigate damage done by the wtbts.

i met ted jaracz, in the early 1970s when he was called into bethel to serve on the gb.

this mans control of the service department and the gb is what i have fought for 3 decades but recently conceded this system is beyond reforming.

borgfree

Jst2laws,

I have read this thread from the time it started and had decided not to post to it as I do not wish to add anymore to the "harsh criticism" of elders or former elders, but, one thing keeps bothering me about your comments:

Quote:

"I learned from those many years not to waste time on systems nor people who are more concern with being RIGHT than understanding the perspective of others. I have left destructive associations that thrive on harsh and judgmental views."

and:

"Having decided to not even read the negative posts or work of the posters I have failed to consider the posiblity you have proposed."

The attitude of "I am so busy, I don't have time for your problem" and in some cases the attitude that is very evident you can almost hear them thinking "Who are you, I am so intelligent and I am an ELDER, who do you think YOU are to question ME"

I do not mean to put you in that catagory but your comments above brought back those memories.

I am happy for every elder who starts waking up and seeing the WT for what it really is, and I am even more happy for the ones who bravely separate themselves from that disgusting organization. I will be happy to aid any, that I know, if the occasion ever arises.

I know several ex-elders and they are wonderful people, I treasure their friendship. I have also met some who give the impression that they think their prestige should be transfered from elder to non-elder and that they should be treated with high honor just as they expected in the organization.

I resent the high-mindedness of some, if that elder is truly a good friend/brother he does not have to demand honor, he will be given it gladly and willingly.

I do not have any respect for an elder who learns the truth and then keeps acting as a "faithful" representative of the WT organization. By staying in that position he is encouraging others to continue in their course. I have family in the WT. Some of the elders go out of their way to "adopt" my family and keep them "strong" in the organization.

Those elders have displayed wrong motives and in at least one case an elder was disfellowshipped. That elder fits the description I stated above, one who demands great honor, he is a self-righteous, self-serving person. He was just recently reappointed as elder. How should I feel about such a person?

I do not know you, so I do not mean to put you in any catagory. I do wish you all the best in your journey.

(My apolegies to any who has posted something while I was preparing this post, that is, if I repeated your thoughts.)

Borgfree

15

1/2002 KM: WT & Awake Sub Campaign

by AMNESIAN in

jw
friends

"april: the watchtower and awake!

magazines.

where interest is found on return visits, subscriptions may be offered.".

borgfree

SpinDoctor,

Did you really have a hard time typing as you were laughing so hard at the total nonsence you were writing??

26

Proof the WT is God's Org?

by mindfield in

jw
friends

i recall a conversation i once had with my jw uncle about the many doctrinal flip-flops, the blood issue, and how some in the cong.

treated me like @w#$@ even though i was never baptized.. funny, the only thing he could defend himself with was "well, do you know of any other religion that insists on god's name?

" i didn't know of any, so i coudn't really say yes.

borgfree

Me answering for Fredhall

"Meow"

26

Proof the WT is God's Org?

by mindfield in

jw
friends

i recall a conversation i once had with my jw uncle about the many doctrinal flip-flops, the blood issue, and how some in the cong.

treated me like @w#$@ even though i was never baptized.. funny, the only thing he could defend himself with was "well, do you know of any other religion that insists on god's name?

" i didn't know of any, so i coudn't really say yes.

borgfree

Mindfield,

Sure, it is the love they have for one another! stop laughing

BTW Jesus was given the name that is above EVERY name, I don't see the exception there... at least in a real bible.

37

Abaddon - Re: WASPs

by borgfree in

jw
friends

abaddon,.

i was going to answer your post in the thread where you posted but thought it better to not continue the discussion on that thread which was for a diferrent topic.. you say: quote: "yeah, all those wasp's working on railroads, and in restauraunts, and in poorly-paid factory jobs whilst the blacks, irish, polish, scandanavian, other non-anglo protestants, roman catholics and the latino's sat around in highly paid jobs benefitting from the sweat of the wasp's.... ... oh, no, sorry, it was the wasp's tending to sit around in highly paid jobs, whilst the roman catholics, blacks, irish, polish, scandanvians, other non-anglo protestants, and the latinos did the hard poorly paid jobs.... the wasp's built america?

like, yeah.

borgfree

Lisa you said:

Quote: "There does exist plenty of double standards and not just race based, either. I doubt you will ever hear of any famous WASP women, LOL."

I did not know you were limiting it to women who helped build this country.

I do not know all of the background of the early American women but I would think that out of many such as Betsy Ross, Martha Washington, Dolly Madison and others that there must have been a WASP in there someplace.

Also, Quote: "So we should call a spade a spade (no pun intended, LOL) and say YES white men raped, pillaged, murdered,plundered etc etc to build this country. However, if the situation were reversed I'm sure we would be saying the same thing about black men or yellow men or red men."

I am not sure I got your point. I do not think we have to go back in history to see that your statement is true. We only need to examine today in Africa, Afganistan, Iraq, China, and some I am forgetting.

A few years ago we had examples in Japan and their ally's.

Maybe the point that I missed was your comment that power corrupts. If that is the case I agree with you. I even made the comment years before I left the WT that if our elders (Richmond, Indiana)were an example of the Princes who would be ruling us in the "new system" then I did not want to live there.

You said:

Quote: "Now, I'd like to think that we've learned a LOT in 200 years, so much so that we would never tolerate slavery in our midst today."

Maybe not in our midst but still practiced today, Sudan, I think.

I still have trouble with the notion that this country was built on the backs of those slaves in the south. Those were plantations as you said, much like the large corporation agricultural ranches of today. The corporations today use migrant workers to bring in their crops but if migrant workers were not available they would use whatever work force was available, prices might be higher but there are always workers.

I have to believe the same was true back in slave days. Those plantation owners were not fools, if they did not have access to slavery they would have done whatever was necessary to harvest their crops. If I can believe history, those crops were mostly cotton, am I then to believe that our country's future rested on whether or not the slaves brought in the cotton?

I have been involved in business for many years now. I will tell you that successful business men will do what it takes to make the business a success, if one thing does not work they go to the next thing until they solve their problem, slaves or no slaves.

You Said:

Quote "It is an established and well known fact that SOME Africans sold their fellow Africans into slavery. What is not nearly as well known, originally this concept was to benefit ALL involved. Those sold were CRIMINALS and were not wanted in their native villagers. Selling criminals into slavery is one thing, kidnapping and separating families is another thing entirely."

I guess I am not sure of the truth here. I have read that Africans raided villages for the purpose of kidnapping people to sell into slavery. If that is true then why do only white American men get demonized when it comes to slavery? And is it ok to sell criminal men into slavery?

Again you said:

Quote:
"Again, this should not be a surprise, just having black skin doesn't mean you were free from sin until the white man corrupted you!"

You coulda fooled me! Judging by the media for the last 30 - 40 years.

Borgfree (mad as hell and ain't gonna take it anymore class) kidding, just kidding!!

37

Abaddon - Re: WASPs

by borgfree in

jw
friends

abaddon,.

i was going to answer your post in the thread where you posted but thought it better to not continue the discussion on that thread which was for a diferrent topic.. you say: quote: "yeah, all those wasp's working on railroads, and in restauraunts, and in poorly-paid factory jobs whilst the blacks, irish, polish, scandanavian, other non-anglo protestants, roman catholics and the latino's sat around in highly paid jobs benefitting from the sweat of the wasp's.... ... oh, no, sorry, it was the wasp's tending to sit around in highly paid jobs, whilst the roman catholics, blacks, irish, polish, scandanvians, other non-anglo protestants, and the latinos did the hard poorly paid jobs.... the wasp's built america?

like, yeah.

borgfree

Abaddon,

If you like guilt then I guess that's a good ancestor to feel guilty about. I think if you were living then, and were maybe his daughter/son, that you would have been very proud of him.

How do you know how your descendants will judge you in say 200 years?

BTW, who did he buy those slaves from?

Borgfree

37

Abaddon - Re: WASPs

by borgfree in

jw
friends

abaddon,.

i was going to answer your post in the thread where you posted but thought it better to not continue the discussion on that thread which was for a diferrent topic.. you say: quote: "yeah, all those wasp's working on railroads, and in restauraunts, and in poorly-paid factory jobs whilst the blacks, irish, polish, scandanavian, other non-anglo protestants, roman catholics and the latino's sat around in highly paid jobs benefitting from the sweat of the wasp's.... ... oh, no, sorry, it was the wasp's tending to sit around in highly paid jobs, whilst the roman catholics, blacks, irish, polish, scandanvians, other non-anglo protestants, and the latinos did the hard poorly paid jobs.... the wasp's built america?

like, yeah.

borgfree

Abaddon,

You are correct. I have been responding to the term WASP to include all white men. It seems to me that is the way the media has treated the term WASP over the last few decades. I have personally been called a WASP by people who are known as minorities.

I have listened to left wing media types, (most networks) praise every group except white men for years, while at the same time constantly attacking every thing white men do, as being somehow evil. I have heard minority leaders attack the founders of this country as being a bunch of monsters, who invaded a beautiful, peaceful land of totally innocent people (some of my ancestors)and then went about building a country by victimizing every non-white man available.

I am just personally very tired of those attacks and think it is time for "white men" to stand up for the truth. Whatever wrongs the founders of this country did they were not exceptions in history, and, I am sure you know that.

Today, it is acceptable for white men to be called honkey, boy, devils, etc. and they are supposed to take that without complaint, while at the same time people loose jobs and are persecuted for using words, that do not have derogatory meanings, but still offend some minorities simply because those minorities do not know the meaning of those words. Some words are now replaced with initials so that some minority will not be offended, the way you would talk around children.

I did not intend to start some kind of a crusade, I just want the same consideration that is expected for all, except, white men. Whether or not other white men speak up is up to them but I have decided that I will.

Borgfree

37

Abaddon - Re: WASPs

by borgfree in

jw
friends

abaddon,.

i was going to answer your post in the thread where you posted but thought it better to not continue the discussion on that thread which was for a diferrent topic.. you say: quote: "yeah, all those wasp's working on railroads, and in restauraunts, and in poorly-paid factory jobs whilst the blacks, irish, polish, scandanavian, other non-anglo protestants, roman catholics and the latino's sat around in highly paid jobs benefitting from the sweat of the wasp's.... ... oh, no, sorry, it was the wasp's tending to sit around in highly paid jobs, whilst the roman catholics, blacks, irish, polish, scandanvians, other non-anglo protestants, and the latinos did the hard poorly paid jobs.... the wasp's built america?

like, yeah.

borgfree

Thanks IW,

I may not get back to the bord for several hours. Have a very good night.

Borgfree

37

Abaddon - Re: WASPs

by borgfree in

jw
friends

abaddon,.

i was going to answer your post in the thread where you posted but thought it better to not continue the discussion on that thread which was for a diferrent topic.. you say: quote: "yeah, all those wasp's working on railroads, and in restauraunts, and in poorly-paid factory jobs whilst the blacks, irish, polish, scandanavian, other non-anglo protestants, roman catholics and the latino's sat around in highly paid jobs benefitting from the sweat of the wasp's.... ... oh, no, sorry, it was the wasp's tending to sit around in highly paid jobs, whilst the roman catholics, blacks, irish, polish, scandanvians, other non-anglo protestants, and the latinos did the hard poorly paid jobs.... the wasp's built america?

like, yeah.

borgfree

IslandWoman,

I do not find anything in your last post to disagree with.

No apology necessary, but thank you.

Borgfree

37

Abaddon - Re: WASPs

by borgfree in

jw
friends

abaddon,.

i was going to answer your post in the thread where you posted but thought it better to not continue the discussion on that thread which was for a diferrent topic.. you say: quote: "yeah, all those wasp's working on railroads, and in restauraunts, and in poorly-paid factory jobs whilst the blacks, irish, polish, scandanavian, other non-anglo protestants, roman catholics and the latino's sat around in highly paid jobs benefitting from the sweat of the wasp's.... ... oh, no, sorry, it was the wasp's tending to sit around in highly paid jobs, whilst the roman catholics, blacks, irish, polish, scandanvians, other non-anglo protestants, and the latinos did the hard poorly paid jobs.... the wasp's built america?

like, yeah.

borgfree

LDH,

I am now at work but will do the best I can to reply.

What you call "took advantage of" would be, especially in that day, providing jobs. Every man or in some cases woman had the choice to accept or reject those jobs. Of course the rich men (Andrew Carnegie)used those employees to get richer, are you saying you wouldn't?

You must also remember that you are judging the people of that day by today's standards. Not a very fair judgement. I do not defend everything those men did but I am somewhat of a realist, they offered jobs, people desparetly needed jobs and so willingly worked for those rich men.

I can see merit in the labor laws but I also know that all of those laws were not made because the politicians were so kind hearted, rather many of them (politicians) buy votes by passing laws, good or bad.

I have a little trouble with your view that business men "broke the backs of uneducated workers" were those workers kidnapped and forced to work? Are you saying those poor workers, aka victims, had no choice?

You say, Quote: " Now of course we are paying the price with everyone and their brother using technicalities and loopholes in the law to 'get ahead.'"

No, I think we are paying the price for electing spineless, incompetent, socialist, bleeding heart liberals.

Quote: "My definition would not include the death of workers (mostly white) who built the Hoover Dam, Brooklyn Bridge, Railroads, etc). Shit, minorities couldn't even get most of these jobs."

Those are and were of course very dangerous jobs and there were very hearty men willing to risk life and limb to do those jobs, probably partly because those were the higher paying jobs. I personally was a window washer for a big part of my life in Chicago, Cincinnati, Columbus, etc., my buildings were 20 - 30 floors high. I chose to do that job, I risked my life every day but no one forced me to do it and I was not a victim of some cruel business owner.

My use of the words "wonderful and minorities" is because that is the way minorities are portrayed, they seem to always be a victim of some evil white man taking advantage of them. Even when a minority commits a crime it is not because that person is a criminal but rather because some evil white man victimized him causing him to strike out in the only way he knew how.

Sorry, you have my generation just a little bit off. I was only a small child when the Japanese were interred.

I see no problem with criticizing wrongs of this country but surely you recognize that it is all out of proportion. Other countries are overlooked in the criticism department when it comes to extreme wrongs while the USA is overly criticized for much less wrongs.

You say, Quote "Bill Maher, whom I love dearly, can get away with criticizing the government of this country. Ask yourself how the general public would feel if Bill's words were coming out of, say, Louis Farrakhan's mouth? Farrakhan being an asshole is an aside for the sake of this argument."

I cannot stand or stomach Bill Maher, I think he is a leftist propagandist. I have no use for Louis Farrakhan either, I am an equal opportunity disliker.

WASP women? how about Margaret Thatcher?

Borgfree