Posts by borgfree

35

Many Christians Preachers at war with Natural Science

by D wiltshire in

jw
friends

i consider myself a christian and i think christian preachers who spout off against evolution and claim they are doing it to stay loyal to gods word.

are doing a disservice to the, christian witness to a scientifically knowledgeable generation.

christians should be knowledgeable about this subject before they openly call persons who have scholarship in these subjects, as incorrect.

borgfree

Rem,

I can see merit in what you describe, using spectroscopy.

It is possible to tell where rocks come from through spectrochemical analysis or spectroscopy. We can even tell what elements are inside distant stars with the technique.

I still have to question the absoluteness of identifying a particular rock as coming from one certain planet.

Is it possible that another object in the universe could have the same elemental makeup? How could that be proved?

Is it possible that the atmosphere could have changed over millions of years on another planet etc. causing a difference in the elemental makeup of rocks, maybe differing from what can be observed today? Maybe different layers of different rocks on the same planet?

Is it possible that light being bent as it passes another object in space could have an effect on the data used by spectroscopy?

Borgfree

35

Many Christians Preachers at war with Natural Science

by D wiltshire in

jw
friends

i consider myself a christian and i think christian preachers who spout off against evolution and claim they are doing it to stay loyal to gods word.

are doing a disservice to the, christian witness to a scientifically knowledgeable generation.

christians should be knowledgeable about this subject before they openly call persons who have scholarship in these subjects, as incorrect.

borgfree

Logansrun,

Sorry, your post has not been showing up on my screen.

Just because you can't comprehend something doesn't mean that it's not true.

I agree, I still claim my right to my opinion.

I take great exception to your implications of scientists as "changing facts" and that they are no better or any more trustworthy than theologians.

I think I am remembering correctly, that it was scientists, who told us bacon was very bad for us, for some reasons, then it is not bad for us. Coffee was very bad for us then it wasn't. Milk, same thing, and many other food items and medicines, etc. I could be wrong but I do think it was scientists who were making those decisions.

Do yourself a favor and educate yourself in science before you make outrageous claims.

I intend for my comments to be opinions and thoughts rather than outrageous claims.

Borgfree

35

Many Christians Preachers at war with Natural Science

by D wiltshire in

jw
friends

i consider myself a christian and i think christian preachers who spout off against evolution and claim they are doing it to stay loyal to gods word.

are doing a disservice to the, christian witness to a scientifically knowledgeable generation.

christians should be knowledgeable about this subject before they openly call persons who have scholarship in these subjects, as incorrect.

borgfree

Abaddon,

Religion and theism are static systems based upon an unchanging book. If new facts are discovered that don't fit the theories, the facts are challanged or they have to make changes in their theories, even though what the theory is based on (the book) is the same.
This is a big difference. Which honestly do you think is a better choice for guiding your life?

If the Creator of everything, gave a book for His creatures to live by, wouldn't you expect it to be unchangeable?

If new facts are discovered that do not fit the theories it wouldn't prove the book wrong. It might prove the theories wrong. I agree with what D Wiltshire said above:

Christians should be leading the way to find out about God’s handiwork the universe instead of spouting off ridicule at Scholars that know far more about which they worked very hard to learn about.

I think that evolutionists should do the same. I do not think anyone on earth knows everything.

There are all kinds of people claiming to be Christian, some are very hard line in demanding that we believe exactly what has been taught for centuries, others try to be open to testing old beliefs and arriving at the truth.

It seems to me both sides could discuss the subject without either side saying "you are stupid", "you don't know what you are talking about", "first study all of the material on the subject before you comment" I think this example is what I am talking about:

Here you set an unreasonable requirement; you are not 'very knowledgeable in the field of science and evolution', but you say you 'do not believe there exists any technology that proves that "fact" no matter how sure the scientists are that it is a piece of Mars'.

We all know there are billions of planets, asteroids, comets, and other objects in the universe. Am I to believe the scientists can prove, that rock, came from Mars, rather than from earth, or any one of those billions of orbiting objects? Can the scientists prove that the minerals in that rock are found only on Mars? I think common sense would tell us they cannot, whether we have read all of the science books or not.

Of course they aren't. But you don't have the knowledge to evaluate their arguments, and rather than seeking to get the tools to evaluate their arguments...

I agree, I still think there are areas where we can just use logic to determine whether something is believable or not.

... you cling to your old beliefs even though you admit you can't evaluate the truth of what scientists say. Is that reasonable? You have basically, without knowing about it, decided science is wrong

I was raised from birth on the teachings of the bible. Yes, I cling to them, and have faith in the God of the bible. I have never had an interest in studying evolution, however I will remain open to change, if the facts prove that I should change. You are wrong about my opinion of science. As a JW student in school I loved science, and in fact, had a desire to be a scientist. Of course that did not meet with the approval of the WT org.

Borgfree

35

Many Christians Preachers at war with Natural Science

by D wiltshire in

jw
friends

i consider myself a christian and i think christian preachers who spout off against evolution and claim they are doing it to stay loyal to gods word.

are doing a disservice to the, christian witness to a scientifically knowledgeable generation.

christians should be knowledgeable about this subject before they openly call persons who have scholarship in these subjects, as incorrect.

borgfree

Abaddon,

I am leaving now for work, but will take just a moment to reply to the last statement you made, I will take more time, when I can, at work, to answer more.

and are now buying a book that you know will at least in part tell you what you've already decided to believe.

I really do not know anything about the book or the author.

Borgfree

35

Many Christians Preachers at war with Natural Science

by D wiltshire in

jw
friends

i consider myself a christian and i think christian preachers who spout off against evolution and claim they are doing it to stay loyal to gods word.

are doing a disservice to the, christian witness to a scientifically knowledgeable generation.

christians should be knowledgeable about this subject before they openly call persons who have scholarship in these subjects, as incorrect.

borgfree

Larc,

I am sure there are many facts that are claimed to support evolution. I just do not personally trust scientists any more than I do theologians. Over my life time I have seen scientists change "facts" many times.

I suppose, if I were very knowledgeable in the field of science and evolution, I would have fewer doubts about their findings, but based on my very limited knowledge, I just cannot accept, simply because a scientist says so, that some of their findings are legitimate.

I cannot believe, for example, that such prouncements, like the rock being found in Alaska, or wherever it was, is a chunk of Mars. I do not believe there exists any technology that proves that "fact" no matter how sure the scientists are that it is a piece of Mars. I have used that example before, but there are many pronouncements like that, that have had to be changed over the years.

Scientists are no more infallible than the Pope.

As a Christian, I believe that creation testifies to the existence of the Creator. I have, and I am sure you have, marveled at the vast amount of life forms and the huge variety of other life on this planet and the beauty of the awesome universe.

I think we might be like a computer chip that argues that there is no proof that a human exists, let alone that some human has any control over such a marvelous "being" as the computer.

Just my thoughts.

Borgfree

35

Many Christians Preachers at war with Natural Science

by D wiltshire in

jw
friends

i consider myself a christian and i think christian preachers who spout off against evolution and claim they are doing it to stay loyal to gods word.

are doing a disservice to the, christian witness to a scientifically knowledgeable generation.

christians should be knowledgeable about this subject before they openly call persons who have scholarship in these subjects, as incorrect.

borgfree

D Wiltshire,

Thanks, I have ordered the book and I will read it.

Borgfree

35

Many Christians Preachers at war with Natural Science

by D wiltshire in

jw
friends

i consider myself a christian and i think christian preachers who spout off against evolution and claim they are doing it to stay loyal to gods word.

are doing a disservice to the, christian witness to a scientifically knowledgeable generation.

christians should be knowledgeable about this subject before they openly call persons who have scholarship in these subjects, as incorrect.

borgfree

Hi D Wiltshire,

I agree with your statements:

God made man curious,

The Christian faith in not dependent of ignorance.

Christians should be leading the way to find out about God’s handiwork the universe instead of spouting off ridicule at Scholars that know far more about which they worked very hard to learn about.

Like some have mentioned, I do not have time to read material on every subject. I read by priority, starting with the most important to me, and continuing on to other reading material, as I have time.

I try to be open to solid arguments, but I have trouble with the subject of evolution, as has been obvious in past postings.

I do not understand why some are much more fervent in their proclaiming their truth of evolution than they probably were in their preaching door-to-door, the WT message. Some are even more aggressive in promoting evolution than many preachers are in promoting Christianity. They will ridicule people who do not believe evolution, call names, and be extremely rude.

Why do they think it is so very important that everyone believes as they do? At the same time, those same ones, are very intolerant of anyone attempting to give the Christian point of view. It seems to be almost a religion to some evolutionists.

Also, I do think there are many cases where some scientists have been dishonest, and cases where scientists have changed 180 degrees in their pronouncements and in each case people were supposed to believe their theories as if they were absolute truth, much like the F&DS.

I will continue to try to be open minded though, and willing to accept information that is based on facts.

Some arguments, I believe, are short sited. I have seen statements about "how could God do...." leaving out the thought that "God" could do many things beyond our understanding, such as make the sun stand still.

I am sure if you told people, in the 1800s, that some day we would be able to sit in our own homes and watch what is happening on the other side of the world, or walk down the street and talk to people all over the world with a little gadget in our hand, we probably would have been accused of having demons, but today those things are realities. Many future things will be taken for granted that today we would quickly say are not possible.

I believe there is an Almighty God, if evidence proves that the Creator used a form of evolution to create, then I will accept that, but I am not convinced by anything I have read, to this point. (admitting I haven't read very much on evolution)

Borgfree

72

Through everything... do you feel that you learned soemthing?

by anotheropenviewpoint in

jw
friends

i am new to the board and have read countless gripes and pokes at "the organization" but i fail to find one interesting question.. in preface... i was disfellowshiped myself over 5 years ago.

in that time, i had done much searching, visited many churches and faithes.. going to some for as short as one session and some as long as 6 - 8 months.

after i felt my search was in vein i stopped attempting to go to these shurches all together.. i never forgot how to pray through.

borgfree

Hi anotheropenviewpoint,

Your question:

Do you feel as though you did learn something while you were there through.... ?

One outstanding thing I learned, after a lifetime of believing the WT org, was just how hateful, hurtful, and downright evil, some of those "wonderful brothers and sisters" could be. Believe me I will never go back to that cult.

Borgfree

16

District Convention Part 1/6. Friday morning

by Winston Smith :>D in

things that the wts could never get away with putting in print but have free reign to say verbally

heres my summary of the dc after recently having the veil lifted from my eyes re the wts

part 1/6

borgfree

Thanks Winston, That was very intertaining. I plan to move to California in a few months. I am not known in that area and I plan on having some fun with conventions, JWs at the door, etc.

I look forward to your next installments.

Borgfree

24

Explain this to me

by Ariell in

jw
friends

i'm new here.. i would like to question those who tend to disagree with jw teachings, but still seem to believe in christianity and refer to god as jehovah.

i always told myself that if i were to ever leave i'd stay out of religion all together, because if this isn't the truth than nothing is.

christianity in today's society is so warped that it's not even funny.

borgfree

I question JW beliefs because I have learned, by study of the bible, and other books, that the witnesses have nothing resembling truth. I will explain that I was born into the JW beliefs, and stayed until I was 54 years old, I knew the JW teachings well.

I do, definitely believe in God, but do not refer to Him as Jehovah for two reasons, first, I think it is not the proper name, Yahweh is probably closer, second, Jehovah is too closely linked to the Watchtower Society and I choose to distance myself as much as possible from anything Watchtower.

I thought for many years, just as you said, if we did not have the truth then nobody did, I was very wrong. I am a born again Christian. I attend churches when I choose to, but I have not wanted to join any church. I go to different churches and believe they all (mainline Christian) teach the truth from the bible. Different churches, or denominations, will differ on some things, but they will all believe the most important basics of the Christian faith.

If the churches are filled with hypocrisy, isn't that the place where hypocrites need to be? I am very much a sinner, and I know I need to be as close to God as possible. BTW, the Watchtower has plenty of hypocrites too.

I do not hold to any Watchtower teachings, in fact just the opposite is true, I usually discount everything I learned from the organization, and set out to learn everything from scratch. I do not use my own interpretation, or twist. The bible must support what I believe or I will not believe it.

The Watchtower always said that we could prove what we believed, from the bible, that is not at all true. To prove the Watchtower teachings, you must take parts of scriptures, out of context, and jump all over the bible in the process. You must, now, also, have a different version of the bible, as people were starting to give the JWs too much trouble, using the common translations, and proving the JWs wrong.

Borgfree