Posts by the_classicist

36

The Atheist's Book of Bible Stories - new - The Long and the Short of It

by RunningMan in

and there were giants in those days genesis 6:4

there is a simple principle of physics that has changed the way i look at the universe.

it has also prevented me from being taken in by a huge array of common legends and misconceptions.

the_classicist

actually, island dwarfism has been known to scientists for a long time. elephants shrink, and rats grow large. anyways, it's one thing for island mice to become 3x their size. it's completely another thing for 6 foot tall bipedal humans to become 3x their original size.

In volume, it's believable, but not in height (3x, I mean).

If you want to believe the bible stories as metaphore, fine. Og was a 13 foot giant decendent of the Nephalim. If you take it as all true, then you shouldn't balk at a 13 foot man. After all, moses had just parted the red sea. And one of his desendents was about to go into battle where the earth stopped rotating, to give him more sunlilght to complete the job.

Steve, it didn't say he was 13 ft., it said his bed was.

Thanks, Classicist and Rex for the real-time demonstrations.

What I'm saying is that "giant" is a relative word, though you may not accept that. Some people are generally smaller than others, this is genetic (possibly, though we don't know conclusively), dietary, and there are other factors. Now, it is possible that these Nephilim had average heights of 6-7 feet, while the others had an average of around 5 feet. Now, one tribe would definitely seem like giants to the other, especially in battle, which is where two different tribes usually meet.

36

The Atheist's Book of Bible Stories - new - The Long and the Short of It

by RunningMan in

and there were giants in those days genesis 6:4

there is a simple principle of physics that has changed the way i look at the universe.

it has also prevented me from being taken in by a huge array of common legends and misconceptions.

the_classicist

You seem to be saying that cubits are not necessarily cubits and giants are not necessarily giants. If the Bible is saying that Og, King of the giants was a full six or even seven feet tall, then the Bible would be quite believable. However, when someone is describing the magnificent temple to me (which was measured in cubits), there doesn't seem to be much question about the unit of measure. The size of Og is not specifically given - it is implied by his furnishings and title. The size of Goliath is actually given - six cubits and a span (9.5 feet). So it appears to me that when the Bible talks about giants, it means giants.

i'm saying that cubits are not a standard measurement and are subjective (especially over time), unlike modern lengths, which have a universal standard. The ancient cubit is aroud 17.49 inches. The bed was 9 cubits and is, as you said, 13.12 feet. Now, beds aren't meant to be the same size as one's body.

Now, the passage in Deuteronomy refers to a remnant of someone's bed, so that we can't really know the real height of the person, and they did know it at the time it was written in Deuteronomy either as is obvious from the passage. But among the people of that area Og was known to be very tall. I find someone who is 7 feet to be giant even though I'm 6 feet 2 inches. And when you were a child, you and all your peers thought that adults were giant in stature. Just because you view the "giant" to mean 50 foot woman, doesn't mean that it does: it's relative.

Now, a lot of heights may seem unbelievable to you, but nature has defied science and common sense before. For example, recently on an island in the Atlantic, non-native mice have grown 3x their size and have started eating infant birds alive. Scientists thought that this was simply impossible, until they actually saw a video of it.

36

The Atheist's Book of Bible Stories - new - The Long and the Short of It

by RunningMan in

and there were giants in those days genesis 6:4

there is a simple principle of physics that has changed the way i look at the universe.

it has also prevented me from being taken in by a huge array of common legends and misconceptions.

the_classicist

And here: http://www.biu.ac.il/JH/Parasha/eng/chukath/kos.html is an interesting Jewish study on the story.

36

The Atheist's Book of Bible Stories - new - The Long and the Short of It

by RunningMan in

and there were giants in those days genesis 6:4

there is a simple principle of physics that has changed the way i look at the universe.

it has also prevented me from being taken in by a huge array of common legends and misconceptions.

the_classicist

surely, nothing compared to the illogical jump that because there were mountains, that the gods lived on them. or that because there were big, unexplainable neolithic structures, that there must have been giants. or that because such and such story came from an old man with a white beard, that it must be true.

Haven't you ever heard of allegory, tetra?

36

The Atheist's Book of Bible Stories - new - The Long and the Short of It

by RunningMan in

and there were giants in those days genesis 6:4

there is a simple principle of physics that has changed the way i look at the universe.

it has also prevented me from being taken in by a huge array of common legends and misconceptions.

the_classicist

Class: I didn't say he was nine cubits tall. I said his bed was nine cubits long. The logical leap was that a guy who would have to custom build a bed of that size would be taller than medical science allows - a not-illogical leap at all, especially since he was known as the "king of the giants".

Rich people always have had huge beds; I mean you should see the beds in some of those old masions in Europe.

Nevertheless, human height changes quite extremely. From the wikipedia article on the matter, someone over 6 feet tall in the Dark Ages was not considered remarkable, but by 1812, the average height became 5 feet.

It's more than possible that the Jews and Canaanites and other surrounding people were shorter than the people of that Og fellow. For it seemed that Og had hegemony in that region meaning that his people were powerful and well-fed: such people tend to be taller. Now, if the Jews and the Canaanites were impoverished and didn't have as much food (and if the Jews were really in slavery in Egypt, then they would've been underfed and possibly short), certainly they would seem as giants as they are so in relation to one and another.

http://www.pbs.org/pov/pov2005/bigenough/special_heightgap_04.html

13

Watch those Germans!!!!!

by Gill in

jw
friends

i was having trouble sleeping the other night and switched the tv on to bbc 2. there was a programme on about the sw region of africa and a country called namibia.

early in the 20th century namibia was under the control of the german colonialists.

the germans were rather keen on getting more land for themselves as there were a couple of large tribes of black peoples living in namibia.

the_classicist

Absolutely true and undeniable Classicist.
However, and also true of the british in other parts of the world. However, the only difference, and not in any way mitigating the atrocities committed by British, American, French, Japanes soldiers, is the organized manner and the excuse for the camps and exterminations - that these people, be it the Hotentots, or the Jews, Gypsies etck, were a sub human group not up to the Aryan standard. The medical experimentation, the studious works on trying to prove that their brains were inferior, just showed an extra twisted reasoning and an attempt at excusing atrocities with scientific reasoning.
I agree with you, that ALL the atrocities at any camps were inexcusable, but few if any tried to explain it away as if they were just eliminating vermin.

Yeah, there were even concentration camps in Canada and the USA. The problem is that the usage of Concentration Camp has changed to mean something related to the holocaust in Germany. Intrestingly enough, Germany was one of the scientific pioneers in synthetics b/c they couldn't conquer enough countries in order to get all the resources Germany needed (kind of like the situation today with China: growing economy and rapid industrialization; but the Chinese are buying up companies abroad instead). The old Kingdom Hall that I used to go to was a Shinto temple at one time, but after all the Japanese in Canada were put in concentration camps, they confiscated all their property and sold it all off. Although, from what we have seen throughout history, the Germans have been the forerunner of the whole 'race superiority' thing.

36

The Atheist's Book of Bible Stories - new - The Long and the Short of It

by RunningMan in

and there were giants in those days genesis 6:4

there is a simple principle of physics that has changed the way i look at the universe.

it has also prevented me from being taken in by a huge array of common legends and misconceptions.

the_classicist

Cubit is the name for any one of many units of measure used by various ancient peoples, based on the distance between the tip of the middle finger and the elbow on an average person or a similar forearm-based measurement.

RunningMan, you have to remember, there was no standard in measurement back in the day.

And you make the illogical jump by saying that a man who has a bed 9 cubits long would necessarily be 9 cubits tall.

13

Watch those Germans!!!!!

by Gill in

jw
friends

i was having trouble sleeping the other night and switched the tv on to bbc 2. there was a programme on about the sw region of africa and a country called namibia.

early in the 20th century namibia was under the control of the german colonialists.

the germans were rather keen on getting more land for themselves as there were a couple of large tribes of black peoples living in namibia.

the_classicist

Others they transported, Yes, transported, to Shark Island which was a huge concentration camp, Yes 'Concentration Camp' was what it was called, and they were gradually murdered.

From wikipedia:

The Oxford English Dictionary, 2nd ed. defines concentration camp as:
a camp where non-combatants of a district are accommodated, such as those instituted by Lord Kitchener during the South African war of 1899-1902; one for the internment of political prisoners, foreign nationals, etc., esp. as organized by the Nazi regime in Germany before and during the war of 1939-45

*cough* Long Kesh *cough*

15

Religious symbols

by daystar in

since reading c.g.

jung's man and his symbols many years ago (and really, before), i've been interested in the various symbols man has used in his religious practice, their history, and what they mean to him.. the cross, for example, is probably the oldest religious symbol in the world.

it is a solar-phallic symbol representing the masculine forces of life.

the_classicist

No, no, no... I'm not saying that at all. My choice of words may not have been the best there, but it was an attempt at remaining neutral on that controversy. The point is that the idea that Christ died on the cross changed the symbolism for the cross to include that. Prior to that, the cross was more directly a solar symbol.
Don't start confronting me on a tangental topic.

Daystar, it was a joke from Family Guy adapted to the situation (the Vietnam part was on the show, though).

22

Is Satan running the WTS. What say you?

by Lady Lee in

.

so what evidence is there that satan is running the wtb&ts instead of god?.

what are their proofs that god is running the show and what evidence is there that god is not running the show.. could be interesting to see what we can all come up with.

the_classicist

I think Satan has better things to do. In all reality, he subcontracts the job.