Posts by Caveat

1

My issue with the Memorial.

by Caveat in

jw
friends

there is something bothering me about the whole partaking thing.. .

isnt it kind of contradictory that for a religion that doesnt promote the use and eating of blood, the most important ritual and date in their calendar involved the ceremonial drinking of blood as part of it?.

it's like going to a rape victim support group and celebrate their anniversary by ceremoniously raping the founder.

Caveat

There is something bothering me about the whole Partaking thing.

Isn’t it kind of contradictory that for a religion that doesn’t promote the use and eating of blood, the most important ritual and date in their calendar involved the ceremonial drinking of blood as part of it?

It's like going to a rape victim support group and celebrate their anniversary by ceremoniously raping the founder. Somewhat paradoxical ain’t it?

Also, Wasn’t the unused portion of the wine the one they could drink? What about the part they did use on their ritual? Wasn’t that supposed to be poured and not drank?

13

Legal Question

by Caveat in

jw
friends

for our resident lawyers and those familiar with the law anywhere but specially on the us.

can a parent legally forbid a son from being baptized until he becomes an adult (legal age)?.

jws usually baptize their children when they are in their early teens, can an unbelieving parent do something legal to prevent this?.

Caveat

Thanks for your prompt replies, OnTheWayOut and diamondblue1974.

Still the best analogy I can think of is a Marriage. If you plan to marry while underage you need the written consent of one of the parents.

Can a refusal somehow stop or delay the process while the local elders get advice from the legal department?

Caveat

13

Legal Question

by Caveat in

jw
friends

for our resident lawyers and those familiar with the law anywhere but specially on the us.

can a parent legally forbid a son from being baptized until he becomes an adult (legal age)?.

jws usually baptize their children when they are in their early teens, can an unbelieving parent do something legal to prevent this?.

Caveat

For our resident lawyers and those familiar with the law anywhere but specially on the US…

Can a parent legally forbid a son from being baptized until he becomes an adult (legal age)?

JWs usually baptize their children when they are in their early teens, can an unbelieving parent do something legal to prevent this?

Your thoughts,

Caveat

16

Scientology??

by Junction-Guy in

jw
friends

well i know very little about scientology, but from what i have seen on this board, alot of xjw's feel it is even worse than jw's.

what is it about scientology that makes it seem worse?

the reason i ask is i was passing through cincinnati the other day returning home from dayton and there was a scientology church in downtown cincinnati.

Caveat

I think you are better off reading about them from their ex members:

http://www.xenu.net/

Caveat

15

Commatology 101

by Caveat in

commatology 101. the wt argues that the expression on luke 23:43 should be rendered: "truly i tell you today, you will be with me in paradise.".

a great deal has been placed on this commas placement since the traditional understanding of this verse is in direct contraposition with the watchtower teachings.. since commas are not included in the original language, our understanding of this passage is conditioned to our beliefs and the subsequent implications that may arise from its interpretation.. by arguing that the correct rendering is "truly i tell you today," the wt implies that jesus used this phrase regularly and was a rutinary saying of jesus since otherwise it makes no sense adding 'today' on this particular occasion.

since similar phrases are found all over the gospels we can verify the its usage by jesus and hopefully be able to have a pattern that help us into resolving the dilemma.. in the wts comprehensive concordance we can track the usage of the expression truly i tell you', truly i say to you and others that basically have the same structure.. jesus is quoted in the gospels 80 + times, according to the new world translation, with expressions following the same formula.. here is a list of the places in the gospels where jesus is quoted using the phrase or one of its variations: (you can verify them by using your comprehensive concordance book or look them up in your personal copy on the nwt, all are encouraged to add or substract as they do their own personal research).

Caveat

Commatology 101

The WT argues that the expression on Luke 23:43 should be rendered: "Truly I tell you today, You will be with me in paradise."

A great deal has been placed on this comma’s placement since the traditional understanding of this verse is in direct contraposition with the Watchtower teachings.

Since commas are not included in the original language, our understanding of this passage is conditioned to our beliefs and the subsequent implications that may arise from it’s interpretation.

By arguing that the correct rendering is "Truly I tell you today,…" the WT implies that Jesus used this phrase regularly and was a rutinary saying of Jesus since otherwise it makes no sense adding 'today' on this particular occasion. Since similar phrases are found all over the gospels we can verify the it’s usage by Jesus and hopefully be able to have a pattern that help us into resolving the dilemma.

In the WT’s Comprehensive Concordance we can track the usage of the expression ‘Truly I tell you', ‘Truly I say to you’ and others that basically have the same structure.

Jesus is quoted in the gospels 80 + times, according to the New World Translation, with expressions following the same formula.

Here is a list of the places in the gospels where Jesus is quoted using the phrase or one of it’s variations: (You can verify them by using your Comprehensive Concordance book or look them up in your personal copy on the NWT, all are encouraged to add or substract as they do their own personal research)

Matthew:

1) 5:18

2) 5:26

3) 6:2

4) 6:5

5) 6:16

6) 8:10

7) 10:15

8) 10:23

9) 11:11

10) 13:17

11) 16:28

12) 17:20

13) 18:3

14) 18:18

15) 18:19

16) 19:23

17) 19:28

18) 21:21

19) 21:31

20) 23:36

21) 24:2

22) 24:34

23) 24:47

24) 25:12

25) 25:40

26) 25:45

27) 26:13

28) 26:21

29) 26:34

Mark

30) 3:28

31) 8:12

32) 9:1

33) 9:41

34) 10:15

35) 10:29

36) 11:23

37) 12:43

38) 13:30

39) 14:9

40) 14:18

41) 14:25

42) 14:30

Luke

43) 4:24

44) 4:25

45) 7:26

46) 9:27

47) 12:37

48) 12:44

49) 12:50

50) 13:3

51) 13:5

52) 18:17

53) 18:29

54) 21:3

55) 21:32

56) 23:43

John

57) 1:51

58) 3:3

59) 3:5

60) 3:11

61) 5:19

62) 5:24

63) 5:25

64) 6:26

65) 6:32

66) 6:47

67) 6:53

68) 8:34

69) 8:45

70) 8:51

71) 8:58

72) 10:1

73) 10:7

74) 12:24

75) 13:16

76) 13:20

77) 13:21

78) 13:38

79) 14:12

80) 16:20

81) 16:27

82) 21:18

Out of these 80+ times ONLY 3 TIMES does some kind of fixed time follows the preceding expression ‘I truly say to you’ or one of it’s variants.

These are:

Matthew 26:34 "Truly I say to you, On this night before a cock crows you will disown me three times." (NWT)

Mark 14:30: "Truly I say to you, You today, yes , this night before a cock crows twice, even you will disown me three times". (NWT)

And:

Luke 23:43 "Truly I tell you today, You will be with me in Paradise." (NWT)

Notice that out of these three, two of them are rendered with the familiar formula "Truly I say to you’ separated from the rest of the sentence and only one includes the word TODAY into the expression by using the NWT punctuation.

Again, out of 80+ times that Jesus used this phrase or something along the same line, ONLY three times did he used an immediate time reference along the phrase and only ONE time does the punctuation used by the NWT includes something different from the otherwise standard phrase used by Jesus.

Jesus repeatedly used 'I truly say to you' and as far as I know NEVER used the word TODAY along his frequenly used saying.

Coincidentally Luke 23:43 is the only place where the WT doctrines are challenged by the interpretation of said phrase.

Active Witness, Are you still so sure of the correct rendering of this bible passage and the location of the famous comma?

Caveat

9

Religious Stupor

by Caveat in

a relative of mine, a devout witness, is a very righteous person who drives carefully, lives a decent life in all respects.

telling a lie is completely off limits.

to my complete amazement they told her that is not the case.

Caveat

A relative of mine, a devout Witness, is a very righteous person who drives carefully, lives a decent life in all respects. Telling a lie is completely off limits. In a conversation I was told that in the service a lady told them that she won’t accept WT literature because Witnesses themselves do not read other religions’ literature and are forbidden to do so and are punished for it. To my complete amazement they told her that is not the case.

I said ‘What? How’s that?’ (meaning: Did you lie to her?)

Well it turns out JWs do not accept or read other religions literature by their own choice… that there is no explicit rule they shouldn’t. (the BS meter’s alarm was driving me crazy by that time)

Knowing that there is plenty of advice against it I switched to the punishing part.

They can read what ever they want, I was informed.

‘Well I got a nice book at home that I you can borrow and open it wide and read it in the next meeting, how is that?’

In that case the elder will only admonish the person who does that…

And if I keep doing it and do not follow suit?

Well in that case… I brought it up upon MYSELF… Because I did not heed the counsel from Jehovah

I was dumbfounded. The conversation was very long but in synthesis: First they do not forbid things. It is a matter of personal choice due to biblical training and if you are trained right you won’t do it.

Then they do not get punished for things, you punish yourself for not obeying…

When you see a righteous people LIE and feel they did not, simply justifying away every conflicting detail, and still relate the story like an amazing triumph in religious debating… you really get to know the power of religious stupor.

Do you see examples like this often?

8

Menial tasks and Appointments.

by Dune in

jw
friends

were you ever the witness boy/man who was always asked to do everything in the congregation.

like every elder knew you were the "go-to" guy when something needed to be done.

whether it was vacuming the carpet or helping some old sister move out?

Caveat

I say go for it…

Like Thorn just said you gonna clearly see who is who in your local JW tribe.

And the menial jobs... can live without those... even some elders have them.

7

Making the Watchtower eat their own poop Re: Quotes

by Nosferatu in

jw
friends

most of us know the situation that quotes is in.

the watchtower is suing him for using their quotes in context, and giving credit to them as a source.

now, how does the watchtower quote other sources?

Caveat

Even if the authors do not want to take legal action against them, Can Quotes use this in his defence?

You can't justify a wrong with another (although Quotes did handle his quoting in the proper manner)

But legally, can this somehow help him and his counselors in court?

I do not know the particularities of Canada’s legal system, but if they use a jury, this can be influential on their decision…

Even having one of such authors as a witness.

Can someone with legal background advice?

22

You know, Witnesses haven't cornered the market on being wrong.

by free2beme in

jw
friends

i have been out of the witness religion since the 1990's and i see from reading former witness sites that it is common for people to do something i used to do.

which was that i made a big deal out of all the wrong things the witnesses did and do.

i thought it was some how my responsiblity to tell others when i had the chance, and even when i made the chance, about all the things i knew.

Caveat

Free2beme;

Interesting post. Just like you said we care about the Ws and their views because we felt betrayed by them. Most of us do not realize we betrayed ourselves by allowing others to think for us.

People feel the need to turn things around and to warn others of what’s under the surface. But in the area of ‘Views’ this is a steep climb. Eventually you learn that no one can change your views but you.

Don’t get me wrong, It is a noble effort to try to warn others about problems. And it can be a great relief to talk to others with similar experiences. But is it all the bad blood and the animosity towards the advocates of the opposing view necessary? Weren’t we just like them a just while ago?

Some will justify all the hate by saying that they have family or friends in there and they are just trying to get them out. But most of them are voluntarily in, as a simple conversation with them will show.

Others will say that JWs did a lot of damage to them. But no amount of exposing can give you back what they took.

I heard someone say: "Katrina is innocent, blame Michael Brown"

Someone needs to pay.

We need to pin the blame to someone’s shoulder. We need to find a culprit. No one looks in the mirror. We are just like everyone else.

One thing I have learned is that the universe makes sense in a perverse way. It is not kind but it is in fact logical.

Humans NEED religion. Otherwise we might be even worst than we are right now.

I, myself, realized that I did not need to rely on religion to be righteous. I now try to let my intellect (as limited as it might be) judge my actions and interpret how to deal with situations without submitting to a set of bottled rules to guide my responses. Unfortunately most humans do not have the emotional maturity to cope with life and it’s questions. So they surrender their consciences to a greater good that allows them to assert they are acting ‘right’.

People rarely stop being who they are. If you are an extremist you probably are going to be an extremist for something else. People are most likely to switch sides and be an extremist for the other camp, instead of realizing they are in fact being radicals and zealots.

JWISM is a radical, extremist religion. Atheism can be an extreme, radical religion. EXJWISM can be one too.

The answer lies in the individual rather than the practice. It is a question of how do you approach what you believe instead of what you believe.

When it comes to views (and not facts) humans need to file thoughts on the ‘wrong’ or ‘right’ drawer. Never realizing we usually see personal truths that are subjective.

The beauty of it is that we get to keep searching. Bad things happen when you stop seeking for answers.

As far as JWs goes, it is evident they are collapsing under their own weight. With a little help .

Caveat

8

Albert Einstein goes to a party...

by Caveat in

albert einstein goes to a party and he asked everyone he met their respective iq.

to those who had above 140 he said: "we?ll talk about the great unification theory and the mysteries of the universe... we have much to discuss about!!!

to those over 120 he said: "we?ll talk about international relations, anti semitism and the future of the world... we have much to discuss about!!!

Caveat

Albert Einstein goes to a party and he asked everyone he met their respective IQ.

To those who had above 140 he said: "We?ll talk about the great unification theory and the mysteries of the universe... We have much to discuss about!!!"

To those over 120 he said: "We?ll talk about International Relations, Anti Semitism and the future of the world... We have much to discuss about!!!"

To those over 100 he said: "We?ll talk about local politics, helping our community and the environment? We have much to discuss about!!!"

To those over 80 he said: "We?ll talk about sports and our favorite players... We have much to discuss about!!!"

To those under 80 he said:

"So, how is your congregation doing?"