nomoreTRUTHplz,
What a great post! You are absolutely right! But I think people are passionate about what they believe in. This board does a good job in helping people out and exposing the WT. But there are other times we debate issues probably too much at times over things like: the divine name, trinity, creationism vs evolution, does God exists, ex JW gays and so forth. But I think we are all passionate about what we believe here. We all ultimately think that WE are right and we go into great lengths (me included) into why we feel right about such issues that are important to us.
What happens is that topics get repeated because NEW members come to the board. One person (poster a) explains why topic x is wrong and then another person (poster b) explains why they think topic x is right. MOst people will sympathize with poster a but some people (a minority of posters like myself) will side with poster b... You'll see a "flame document" for a thread because everybody has their say. This board is diverse there are many people who are NOW non-religious, or Born Again, or Atheists... some people are STILL JW'S too! So you can see why it gets so busy on here and why debates are common on here. People want a NEW point of view. People ask questions about their faith and want to shrug of JW belief and start over again.
I think it's the "way the cookie crumbles" in a lot of cases. Most people on the board are sincere and want to help others they think are mislead.
Also, this is about RELIGION. No matter what religion you are (Christianity would have to be one of the worse cases) debates are going to arise and in real life (at least in my experience) people don't talk about religion all that much and don't get "spiritually feed." They don't want to go to the library or go online and surf site after site so much because you do go into a "loop" on the Net sometimes and at times you MAY NOT get the answer... you do get that "run around" at times online. So SOME may think think maybe I'll post here and a famous message poster will come up with the answers! But of course others on the thread will give their input because there's "more than one side to the story."
inquirer
JoinedPosts by inquirer
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23
are we free?
by nomoreTRUTHplz ini don't mean this is as a debate, but merely an observation.
i have noticed that a lot (not all) of us post and participate in topics that are nothing but arguements and debates over what should be believed.
i have also been guilty of this, but just began to wonder, are we really free?.
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inquirer
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Trying to find cross v. stake topics
by Sad emo incan anybody please help me out with some links on the cross versus torture stake debate either on jwd or external sites?
i know there was a thread on here not so long ago but i can't find it.. also, if any of you long time posters can recommend any outstanding ones from the deepest recesses of jwd which you might have kept as favourites, i would be most grateful.
i have to go offline for a while now so many thanks in advance for your help.. emo
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inquirer
Leolaia,
I know this is cheesy, but I heard it on radio, Brian Wilshire (2GB) says to people when one person doesn't agree with the other person's point of view: "Have to agree to disagree!" :) -
60
are we in the last hours
by force ini posted this in the middle of someone elses thread by mistake.
my mother and her friend were talking at da weekend and they reckon we are not only in the last days but the last hours.
i know most of you dont believe that anymore, but do some of you still get scared by it.
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inquirer
Leolaia,
I agree. That's why you should read my post with the interesting links. :) The prophecy of Palestine and the Dome of the Rock (but interestingly not built on the holy of holies!!!) built where the Jewish temple use to be is pretty important stuff... anyway, read the link, if you want... But we probably won't agree, yet again. :) Cheers. :) :D -
60
are we in the last hours
by force ini posted this in the middle of someone elses thread by mistake.
my mother and her friend were talking at da weekend and they reckon we are not only in the last days but the last hours.
i know most of you dont believe that anymore, but do some of you still get scared by it.
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inquirer
inq (only thing Funky Derek quoted from me) -- That book was written in 1987. ... in 1987, you only
had CD’s, tapes and records, now you have Ipods, digital radio, digital
TV, and someone to come to your door to deliever you CD's you bought of
Amazon. If I said to you I have an Internet connection and you look up
web sites and so forth, you’d laugh at me then!!! The world is ever
changing, but look at how fast things are moving along. And now they
reckon about we are going to live like the Jetsons with these flying
cars in the sky in the next few decades. I saw it all on 60 Minutes.Funky Derek: Sorry inquirer, I assumed you were sane. My mistake.
inq: Check out this web site if you don't believe me: (only the first page here, but you get the picture) http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/04/15/60minutes/main688454.shtml
(CBS) Have you ever dreamt about the day you can buzz around in
your very own flying machine? Well, that day may be sooner than you
think.
Sky.” It's a computer system designed to let millions of people fly
whenever they please, and take off and land from wherever they please,
in their very own vehicles.
able to buy.
he will receive America’s top prize for invention. It’s called the
Lemelson-MIT award -- a half-million dollar cash prize to honor his
life’s work, which includes a brand new personal flying machine. Correspondent Bob Simon reports.
It's called the AirScooter, and self-taught inventor Woody Norris says it goes on sale later this year.
60 Minutes on a hilltop outside San Diego, Calif. It can fly for 2 hours at 55 mph, and go up to 10,000 feet above sea level.
it forward and the two counter-rotating blades pivot forward. Push it
back and it goes back. Norris says you won’t need a pilot’s license if
you fly it under 400 feet in non-restricted air space. And he’s going
to sell it for $50,000.
machines. One, built in 1956, was known as Molt Taylor’s Aerocar. You
could detach the wings and haul them behind you. But they failed to
catch on because they were too expensive and hard to fly in bad
weather.
traffic from millions of them buzzing around -- that is, until now. And
that’s because NASA has come up with a plan to make personal flying
machines a reality.
the White House, where he worked on the future of aviation. He showed
Simon a flight simulator, a new computer system that can be put into
any new airborne vehicle. He says it will make flying easy, and will
manage all the new traffic up there.
If you think I am insane, you are closing the blind shutters and won't accept the truth as yet.
We'll soon by living like the Jetson's... :) But I don't know if I could afford it or not! I think a lot of people will have that problem. LOL :) -
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Trying to find cross v. stake topics
by Sad emo incan anybody please help me out with some links on the cross versus torture stake debate either on jwd or external sites?
i know there was a thread on here not so long ago but i can't find it.. also, if any of you long time posters can recommend any outstanding ones from the deepest recesses of jwd which you might have kept as favourites, i would be most grateful.
i have to go offline for a while now so many thanks in advance for your help.. emo
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inquirer
-- Hi Leolaia.
It's been a while since I replied, not because you left me speechless but because I have been preoccupied with other things. It's about time I should reply you now!!! Sorry if my reply to everything may seem brief and is not as well polished as it should be, but I've covered all the points I've wanted to say.
Leolaia -- italics
First of all, much of the critical evidence does comes from the first century itself...such as Seneca, Philo of Alexandria, Tacitus, Suetonius, Chariton, Epictetus, Dionysius of Halicarnassus, Plutarch (who actually lived AD 46-127), etc. Furthermore, works from earlier than the first century are also very important because they confirm that certain forms of crucifixion had already come into existence by the time of Jesus, and that usage of the words stauros and crux from the second century BC onward was the same as in the later period....hence Plautus especially was very important, and Homer is useful for attesting the usage of stauros from a time BEFORE Roman crucifixion came into existence. These sources show clearly that Roman crucifixion (with a patibulum) was well in use before the time of Jesus. Since the Society claims that the word meanings changed sometime later, this is a very important fact. Finally, sources from the second century AD, such as Artemidorus and Lucian, are only several decades out from the time the gospels were written and certainly belong to the same "era"; these are significant sources for their explicitness, and they are perfectly consistent with earlier sources. Not even the Society considers Lucian "too late". Furthermore, since Barnabas, Justin Martyr, and Irenaeus were writing about Jesus' cross specifically, their statements are also highly significant. In short, restricting yourself to only texts from the first century AD itself is to be highly selective of the evidence.
-- I think it's pretty silly to not go close to the era! Let's stick to the first century AD as much as we can! I think patibulum could easily mean just that and nothing else, all those terms are ambigous. I could call a stake a pale, pole, large stick, tree.... but could mean different things to different people. Like someone might think I am talking about a fence pale, or a pole volt when I say pole... you know?
I'm not sure if I understand you here. The Society has misrepresented Lucian and Livy, and on more than one occasion.
-- Maybe they did. But does that mean every quote from the Watchtower is wrong? You think non-Witness literature like the Vine's dictionary is wrong when it suits you! (don't know why this bit stays in italics, sorry)
Well, this issue is more one of translation choices than lexicography. "Torture stake" is clearly inadequate as Beduhn recognizes, because it was used not just to torture people but to execute them. So "execution stake" would be better. But the English language here forces the translator to choose between "execution stake" or "execution cross" (or "cross", since this term in English already has this sense), because "cross" in English usage implies a shape. Not so with the original Greek and Latin words. In the case of stauros, the earlier etymological sense was simply "stake" and had nothing to do with execution because crucifixion as a form of execution had not yet been introduced. By the time we reach the Common Era, stauros was used most often to refer to "the wooden apparatus used in Roman execution", and since its referrent embraced different forms, so did the word stauros refer to crucifixion in its various forms, just as the word "car" today can refer to a four-door sedan or a two-door Volkswagon Beetle or a stretch limousine...they are all "cars". Since the Romans frequently added their own native patibulum to this form of execution, and since they had been doing this since the third century BC, stauros would have commonly referred to two-beamed crosses since this was the term that was recruited to denote "the wooden apparatus used in Roman execution". As a linguist, it is quite clear to me that by the first century AD that stauros no longer only had its original, etymological sense of "stake" (that is, without implying a form of executing people alive on an apparatus), tho of course such a sense was still used. Translation choices have as a priority conveying the sense of the original language in another language, and since the English words differ semantically from the Greek words, one has the liberty of making different choices since no single word fully captures the sense of the original.
-- It's not clear to me though. So you are not even sure yourself how stauros should be translated... it's your word against mine.
Beduhn may object to "cross" because the English word implies a "shape" and not all Roman crosses had this implied shape;
Yeah! That's what I've been saying all along! The could of very well of used the cross, but where and when did they use it, huh?
the patibulumexclusion of the patibulum from the word's real-world referrent, which in fact the device commonly included it. Since the patibulumSeneca, Artemidorus, and Lucian) feature of the apparatus, and especially since gospel accounts allude to the bearing of the cross before crucifixion,
-- In your opinion. You think it alludes because of the angle you have come across in your research as apposed to mine.
I see "cross" overall as a better translation choice than "stake". Since the Society overtly claims that the "torture stake" did not have a patibulum, this neologism of theirs has a lexical sense within the JW community that excludes the shape of "cross". Overall, the rendering is not technically "wrong", just misleading.
-- Since you don't know (as said a bit earlier) let's just leave it to the translators for choice for rendering the best word for it. A Bible should probably have a footnote on it to be really honest with everyone about how there are different types of Roman torture implements.
Since the original Greek word did not imply a shape, one can certainly use a term that pertains more to its function (such as "execution stake"); it is when such a term is used to explicitly exclude a very common, if not likely form of the instrument that it can be misleading. was frequently used, but not always.
-- The original Greek uses only one word stauros and once or twice xylon. Why put the word execution in front of stake? I agree with mainstream translations just putting one word in: cross. JW's should have just one word and not have it so awkward: stake. Execution stake, torture stake... I mean they are related words. Dying on the stake would be torturous and therefore an execution. :) Why add to the Greek text? This is all about symantecs I think.
The most accurate phrase would be "the wooden apparatus used in Roman execution" but that would be a mouthful each time it is used! His preferred "stake" better captures the etymological sense of the word and corresponds to at least one portion of the cross that was always used in Roman crucifixion, but the way the Society construes a "torture stake," it is also overly determinative....for it would demand the was a common (if not typical, if one goes by
--You seem to be stuck on terminology a lot where it's so ambiguous. Where's the proof? IN YOUR OPINION YOU THINK IT CONVEYS THE STORY BETTER BY SAYING CROSS. YOU CAN'T HAVE A CROSS WITHOUT A STAKE THOUGH, AYE? ;) YOu have to dig the things in the ground and make it stay there. The stake is the most important part of the cross. It could very well be (if I just think along different lines for a moment) that in that case... the Dubs are referring to one thing (the stake) and the mainstream Christian Bibles are referring to the horizontal cross piece at the top! I cut your quote off accidentally by the way... sorry again. Bit messy, I know... But I got what you were saying... ;)
The webpage (the second one) provides full extracts of secondary sources that furnish data unfavorable to the Society's view and much of the material, while descriptive of crucifixion itself, does not bear on this specific question. Much of it, such as the lengthy discussion of Christian art, is entirely beyond the scope of this question. Furthermore, the author does not do much to make sense of the mass of information, but in the end falls back on his/her pre-existing views.
-- I think by the fact that he quotes a lot of people is saying it's not his, it's out of the horses mouth. I'll get to this point a bit later... What's wrong with having a mass furnish of data? It's only unfavorable to you! Why does a Catholic web site for example have Jesus dying on a tree?
It's not "convenient", it's what is attested. The meaning change was not primarily "Can stauros refer to a two-beamed cross?", as if the shape had anything to do with it, but the function of the device. The meaning shift took place when the Greeks began to use the word stauros to refer to the "apparatus used in Roman execution". If this device came to include a patibulum, then stauros would have referred to it as a matter of course. Sources from the second century BC onward show that stauros was the default term used to refer to Roman crucifixion. There wasn't a separate term that was used just to refer to two-beamed crosses. It didn't matter what the shape was. Stauros was the name for that vile apparatus and method of gruesome execution, no matter its shape. Going back to my "car" example, the meaning of the word "car" does not change simply because the new 2006 Lexis models roll out of production, with new gadgets and features. Sure, the form of the referrent has changed, but it's still a "car".
What is instead convenient is the Society's insistence that the meaning of stauros vaguely changed "later" than first or even second century AD...they even link it to Constantine on occasion. This is flatly contrary to the evidence. The primary change in meaning occurred when the word began to refer to a particular kind of execution. It continued to refer to this instrument no matter what bells and whistles the Romans wanted to add to their device, or whatever variations it took.
--I think we've gone over and over all this. I think you go a bit technical and can't appreciate simple solid evidence when it's staring you in the face. See last reponse below.
I agree with the Society here....and I came to same conclusion in the original version of my essay. The archaeological evidence of this single victim is ambiguous and does not indicate how the arms are positioned. This is thus not evidence for or against the Society's position....it simply is not relevant evidence to the question.
Why? Depictions of crucifixion continued long after Constantine, and certainly historical knowledge of the practice also continued for some time.
This is not intended as a historical reflection on the event; clearly the gospels do not present his arms as free. This is a religious portrayal of the crucified Jesus, possibly intending some symbolic or artistic meaning...My point is that he is not depicted the way you stated.
LOL, that's what I've been saying throughout all my posts on this subject, that the original terms do not signify a shape. That's precisely my point! So why talk about a "shift in meaning" that pertains to a particular shape?
Yes, the meaning of the term pertained to the "nature and purpose of this instrument". But did it often include a crossbeam? You bet! That is how it is described from the third century BC onward.
Of course the furca was "partially equivalent to crux", it was another word for the crossbeam (see Plautus and Plutarch onward). That the whole cross itself could be called a furca is evidence of the frequency with which crosses included the patibulum.
The Latin word crux was applied to the simple pole, and indicated directly the nature and purpose of this instrument, being derived from the verb crucio, "to torment", "to torture"
This was already discussed above. The crux commonly INCLUDED a patibulum, or in other words had one attached. See Plautus, Seneca, etc. etc. Remember to always consider the primary sources first before relying on secondary sources.
To this upright pole a transverse bar was afterwards added to which the sufferer was fastened with nails or cords, and thus remained until he died, whence the expression cruci figere or affigere (Tac., "Ann.", XV, xliv; Potron., "Satyr.", iii) (When was the transfer bar added?)
Since the third century BC! But since you disqualify earlier sources as being "too early", the question is moot. I already went through most of the evidence originally in my thread, why not read it over again?
-- See last response.
What does this have to do with the evidence for Roman execution?
Again, like the previous example, this pertains to aniconism not crucifixion traditions.
"The patibulum was also an instrument of punishment, resembling the furca; it appears to have been in the form of the letter P."
The patibulum varied its shape as well. It was shaped in such a manner especially in the Republican period when it was used more to humiliation so that prisoners would use it as a yoke to carry wagons and carts behind them. When it was fused with crucifixion, a simple plank was often used as references to the Tau-shaped cross suggest. Again, the issue is whether there was a patibulum included in crucifixion...
http://www.holylandmall.net/jesuscrucified.html ( CATHOLIC WEB SITE, another fact you ignore) , “wanadoo site” (the one with the hangman stake and the with Jesus hands free), “stake or cross” web site. I mean what the Vine’s dictionary says is what the Catholic Encyclopedia says is what the Jewish Encyclopedia says. I mean that “griffiti picture” where it says Alexis worships his god” is anti-Christian. The “hangman” picture on wanadoo, is a lot more historical and significant because it’s not some stupid Roman’s opinion, it’s something that did happen. What more proof do you need? You obviously can't appreciate the simple truth. I honestly don't know if you are Christian or not, but you seem to ignore all credible sources in history. I think we don’t see eye to eye on this subject. That post you put up is just your essay. The sites referred to quote many sources and spend more time "showing" the sources rather than rely on their own opinion and that's a lot better to do that, don't you think?
The sites that I referred to quote:
scholars,
dictionaries,
historians
encyclopedias
(WHAT MORE PROOF DO YOU NEED? )
and show pictures (regardlesss of if it's hands free or not, it's still only one wooden piece) as well! but you just go "oh no, it didn't happen." You are more concerned with your essay than what numerous historians, scholars have said on this subject. Those sites I mentioned are full of quotes. Sorry if my reply is not proof read… but I think it’s crazy to go on. We obviously don’t see eye to eye. We always seem to disagree on JWD! LOL I don’t think I could agree with you on anything. ? But that’s how it is. Anyway, all the best Leolaia. Here is my | and here is your +… I know it’s a Greek cross, but you know how limited these keyboards are (couldn’t be bothered going to that special characters in accessorries and change it properly. -
60
are we in the last hours
by force ini posted this in the middle of someone elses thread by mistake.
my mother and her friend were talking at da weekend and they reckon we are not only in the last days but the last hours.
i know most of you dont believe that anymore, but do some of you still get scared by it.
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inquirer
jgnat,
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60
are we in the last hours
by force ini posted this in the middle of someone elses thread by mistake.
my mother and her friend were talking at da weekend and they reckon we are not only in the last days but the last hours.
i know most of you dont believe that anymore, but do some of you still get scared by it.
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inquirer
I emphasize what I say could be wrong, but I think people should reconsider what happened in previous eras and what's happening now. How much more do we know today than back then? Revelation means to "reveal." The media does this every day! We know how many strave to death in AFrica and how the UN won't do anything about it, about the 100's of millions of people in China that are unemployed and live in poverty. We wouldn't have known this stuff 100 years ago! Our world is so corrupt, they taxed Bolivians for the water that fell on their farms and water was so expensive there was blood on the streets.
What about Eschelon, the ultimate spy network? Bicentrism -- nature's interests more important than humans? -
60
are we in the last hours
by force ini posted this in the middle of someone elses thread by mistake.
my mother and her friend were talking at da weekend and they reckon we are not only in the last days but the last hours.
i know most of you dont believe that anymore, but do some of you still get scared by it.
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inquirer
Italics --funkyderek
Do you disagree with his chronology? Unlike that of the WTS, it's supported by overwhelming amounts of evidence.
That book was written in 1987. ... in 1987, you only had CD’s, tapes and records, now you have Ipods, digital radio, digital TV, and someone to come to your door to deliever you CD's you bought of Amazon. If I said to you I have an Internet connection and you look up web sites and so forth, you’d laugh at me then!!! The world is ever changing, but look at how fast things are moving along. And now they reckon about we are going to live like the Jetsons with these flying cars in the sky in the next few decades. I saw it all on 60 Minutes. A lot has changed since then. They have a factory in Italy where robots do all the work and the only people who come along are those who do the repair work occasionally if one of the robot hands or arms breaks down. What's going to happen to all those people in Far East Asia that make cars? Why not get a machine to do it? Carl Jonson didn’t think of that! Carl talks about things in the past! Life was easier back then. What about all these baby boomers with their pensions what now? How is the government going to do that? What about when you go in a supermarket and you scan the items for yourself. That's in it's trial stage over here. What's going to happen with all those workers? Now we are running out of fuel. What if we run out of ethanol? This era is like no other. Time is moving fast. You live in Ireland and I can talk to you way over on the other side of the world. If I went back in time to tell you that I can do all this on the Internet in 1987, you would have laughed at me. But now it’s happening. The amount of technologyical achievements, wars, unemployed people is astounding! Remember that time that people use to go to Church? NO ONE DOES THAT ANYMORE!!!
It says in Daniel all these things will be sealed up until the time of the end. Nearly everyone has heard about Jesus Christ, so when he said to preach to the gospel to the entire inhabited earth, it couldn't be anymore literal that today. I don't know what more proof we need.
That's true. It's pretty hard to rationalize (I admit) that for example a 1/3 of Europe was whipped out in the Black Death plague that swept across Europe about 700 years ago. But that was before they even knew about America is "over there" and Australia is down "over there." The earth literally has been filled with people like the commandment God gave in Genesis. As far as I am concerned ALL THESE THINGS ARE TAKEN PLACE NOW! It says about in the Bible about cultures not mixing in together -- it's all true! Daniel 2:43 “Whereas you beheld iron mixed with moist clay, they will come to be mixed with the offspring of mankind; but they will not prove to be sticking together, this one to that one, just as iron is not mixing with molded clay.” That is just so irrefutable today!!! It' happening all over the place, literally now. The whole world has been preached to all over the world, literally now. Australia, Europe, Americas...
http://www.ellisskolfield.com/pdf/TFPChapters1-9.pdf
I don’t agree with everything about the JW’s, they think that Palestine is no big issue and it’s just politics! But that amazing book I’ve been reading reckons IT’S THE BIGGEST ISSUE IN HISTORY? Ever wonder what the “2 witnesses” are in Revelation? This guy could be wrong, but he reckons it’s Jews and Christians. He counts from 586 BC and reaches to the time when the Muslims built that Dome Rock in 689 AD… That’s 2500 years later. And adjusted the 2.5 times calculations to 1948 or something like that… He explained the 1967 6 day war as well. You’d have to read it to understand. I am too excited about it now! This is the generation Jesus was talking about! You should read that yourself. 586/7 is an important date after all! I probably am rambling on a bit now, but all these prophecies I am seeing seeing fulfilled. It all makes sense to me.
And one more thing: The doomsday clock is currently at 7 midnight before midnight! They've had this clock for 50 years now. They wouldn't have it if there was no threat! But obviously there is!
I've brain stormed a lot, but it's one of those passionate topics. Can't help myself! -
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!!!!!!!!!! New Elder Video !!!!!!!!!!!!!
by SickofLies inthis time they really did call the police on me lol!
they backed out though, they called, then canceled the call after a while and the police never came to charge me with recording them, pitty really.. http://www.quad-central.com/~dan2007.
there is the link, i was unable to edit the audio file like i usually do to take out the blank spaces and amplify the volume, so if someone could do that with the wav file on the server that would be great!.
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inquirer
Leolaia
My old Kingdom Hall only had 3 rows. It was at least on average 20-30% empty most times I was there. Only Sunday meetings were full.I think you are forgetting they are losing heaps of members lately! -
60
are we in the last hours
by force ini posted this in the middle of someone elses thread by mistake.
my mother and her friend were talking at da weekend and they reckon we are not only in the last days but the last hours.
i know most of you dont believe that anymore, but do some of you still get scared by it.
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inquirer
I can also relate to a poster who said on here once that it's the end of the world when it's the end of your life... While you are asleep in death you are not conscious of anything at all... and before you know it God's going to resurrect you and whola you are in the New World. But I think my first post has a lot of merit though. Food for thought.