Posts by bennyk

7

The Watchtower and "Studies in the Scriptures"

by RR in

in 1886, the divine plan of the ages, the first volume of the series studies in the scriptures was released, in later years five more volumes would be released, some fifteen million copies were distributed during the authors lifetime.

shortly after the death of c.t.

russell, his books were replaced with the writings of j.f.

bennyk

In the Feb 15, 2003 Watchtower, they quote volume 6 of "Studies in the scriptures", "The New Creation" written by C.T. Russell in 1904. There was an asterisk next to the "Studies in the Scriptures", The footnote read: "Published by Jehovah's Witnesses but now out of print."

Of even greater interest to me was the way they butchered the quote they had taken from The New Creation. As found in the Studies in the Scriptures, it read:

"Otherwise the elders , or representatives of the Church, should set before those who assemble themselves these terms and conditions--(1) faith in the blood; and (2) consecration to the Lord and his service, even unto death. They should then invite all who are thus minded and thus consecrated to join in celebrating the Lord's death and their own. This, and all invitations connected with this celebration, should be so comprehensively stated as to leave no thought of sectarianism. All should be welcomed to participate, regardless of their faith and harmony on other subjects, if they are in full accord in respect to these foundation truths--the redemption through the precious blood, and a full consecration unto death, giving them justification."

The 2003 Watchtower ended the quote prematurely, and without the use of a necessary ellipsis. They did NOT quote the following:

and their own. This, and all invitations connected with this celebration, should be so comprehensively stated as to leave no thought of sectarianism. All should be welcomed to participate, regardless of their faith and harmony on other subjects, if they are in full accord in respect to these foundation truths--the redemption through the precious blood, and a full consecration unto death, giving them justification. ”

I think this is another fine example of the Society's duplicity. It is clear that Russell did not agree with the Society's sectarian view that their sect alone are true Christians and that acceptance of their current teachings is vital.

67

Sheep, other sheep, other other sheep, Three classes of sheep?

by garybuss in

i got this message from a forum member.. i think you may be confusing the wts' understanding of the "sheep" of matthew chapter 25 (who have not yet been separated from the "goats") and the "other sheep" of john chapter 10. the two groups are not (i.e.

no longer) considered synonymous.. .

what am i missing?

bennyk

You wrote: "They were teaching that the Sheep of both Matthew 25 and John 10 (spec. "Other Sheep") were a single earthly class."

Doesn't it look like the Society still takes the view that they are one and the same?

No; That's the point. Whereas once upon a time the Society taught that they were one single class (earthly hope with final judgment during/after the Millennium), the Society (as of 1997) teaches that the Sheep of Matthew 25 are judged in a final sense to everlasting life before/during Armageddon, viz. before the Millennium. The Society still teaches that the Other Sheep of John 10: 16 are judged in a final sense to eternal life after the Second Test following the Millennium.

*** w97 7/1 pp. 30-31 Questions From Readers ***
Questions From Readers
We were thrilled with our study of Jesus’ parable of the sheep and the goats. In view of the new understanding presented in “The Watchtower” of October 15, 1995, can we still say that Jehovah’s Witnesses today are sharing in a separating work?
Yes. Understandably, many have wondered about this because Matthew 25:31, 32 says: “When the Son of man arrives in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit down on his glorious throne. And all the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate people one from another, just as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.” The Watchtower of October 15, 1995, showed why these verses apply after the great tribulation begins. Jesus will arrive in his glory with his angels and will sit on his judgment throne. Then, he will separate people. In what sense? He will render decisions based on what people did or did not do before that time.We can compare this to the development of a legal process leading up to a court case. The evidence builds up over an extended period before the court rules and hands down a sentence. The evidence as to whether people now alive will turn out to be sheep or goats has been accumulating for a long time. And it is still coming in. But when Jesus sits on his throne, the case will be complete. He will be ready to render judgment. People will be separated either to everlasting cutting-off or to everlasting life.However, the fact that the separation of people to life(NOTE: not a probationary period) or to death mentioned at Matthew 25:32 is yet future does not mean that no separating, or dividing, occurs before that. The Bible, in Matthew chapter 13, mentions one separation work that occurs earlier. Interestingly, the book United in Worship of the Only True God, pages 179-80, treats this under the heading “Separating of People”. The book says: “There are also other significant events that Jesus prominently associated with the conclusion of the system of things. One of these is the separation of the ‘sons of the kingdom’ from the ‘sons of the wicked one.’ Jesus spoke of this in his parable about a wheat field that an enemy oversowed with weeds.”
The book was referring to Jesus’ illustration set out at Matthew 13:24-30 and explained in verses 36-43. Note in verse 38 that the fine seeds of wheat represent the sons of the Kingdom, but the weeds stand for the sons of the wicked one. Verses 39 and 40 show that in the ‘conclusion of the system of things’—during the time in which we now live—the weeds are collected. They are separated out and finally burned, destroyed.
The illustration deals with anointed Christians (who in the parable of the sheep and the goats are called Jesus’ brothers). Still, the point is clear that a vital separation does occur during our time, with the anointed being distinguished from those who profess to be Christians but who prove themselves to be “sons of the wicked one.”
Jesus provided other examples of people being divided, or separated. Recall that he said concerning the broad road that leads to destruction: “Many are the ones going in through it.” (Matthew 7:13) That was not a comment just about the final outcome. It was a comment about an ongoing development, just as is true now of the few finding the cramped road leading off into life. Recall, too, that when sending out the apostles, Jesus said that they would find some who would be deserving. Others would not be deserving, and the apostles were to shake the dust off their feet “for a witness against” such people. (Luke 9:5) Is it not true that something similar happens as Christians carry on their public ministry today? Some respond well, whereas others reject the divine message that we are bringing.
The articles in The Watchtower dealing with the sheep and the goats noted: “While the judging as described in the parable is in the near future, even now something vital is taking place. We Christians are engaged in a lifesaving work of proclaiming a message that causes a division among people. (Matthew 10:32-39).” In that passage in Matthew chapter 10, we read that Jesus said that following him would be a cause for division—father against son, daughter against mother.
Finally, Christ’s spirit-anointed brothers have spearheaded the worldwide preaching of the Kingdom message. As people hear it and react favorably or unfavorably, they are identifying themselves. We humans cannot, and we should not, say, ‘This person is a sheep; that one a goat,’ in the sense conveyed in Matthew chapter 25. Still, our exposing people to the good news allows them to show where they stand—what they are and how they react to Jesus’ brothers. Hence, like mounting evidence for a court case, the division between those who support Jesus’ brothers and those who refuse to support them is becoming evident. (Malachi 3:18) As The Watchtower showed, Jesus will soon sit on his throne and pronounce sentence, people being judicially separated in a final sense to life or to cutting-off.

67

Sheep, other sheep, other other sheep, Three classes of sheep?

by garybuss in

i got this message from a forum member.. i think you may be confusing the wts' understanding of the "sheep" of matthew chapter 25 (who have not yet been separated from the "goats") and the "other sheep" of john chapter 10. the two groups are not (i.e.

no longer) considered synonymous.. .

what am i missing?

bennyk

bennyk, I'm fascinated. What's your thinking? Did the Society forget about the earthly sheep? Or did they say those of Matthew were the same as those in John? Or is there an article where they tie it together that we haven't found?

Russell believed in nearly universal redemption. At that time the Watch Tower Society taught that almost everyone will have a resurrection -- only the truly incorrigible would not (Heb. 6: 4-8; 10: 26-30). True Christians (both "Little Flock" [AKA "Bride Class" bzw. 144 000] and the "Great Company") were to receive a resurrection to heavenly life; all others were to be brought back in an earthly resurrection and be tested in the Millennium. They were teaching that the Sheep of both Matthew 25 and John 10 (spec. "Other Sheep") were a single earthly class.

OTHER SHEEP NOT OF THIS FOLD, WTR pages 4784, 4785 (Entire article):
"Other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I
must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall
be one fold and one Shepherd."--John 10:16. DURING the Gospel Age the Lord has but one Church, one flock who follow him. "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me." (John 10:27.) From the very first there has been no change in the Lord's flock, either in the terms of discipleship or in the reward promised; as we read, "Ye are called in one hope of your calling."--Eph. 4:4.
The "other sheep" evidently refer to others who will become the Lord's followers under different conditions and under a different call from that which has gone forth during the Gospel Age. The present flock are called upon to sacrifice the earthly nature and become partakers, with the Master and Shepherd, of the divine nature. (Rom. 12:1,2; 2 Tim. 2:11,12; 2 Pet. 1:3,4.) The Lord's flock of the future will not be invited to sacrifice and to a change of nature, but will, on the contrary, be privileged to maintain and retain the human nature; and by obedience will gradually, step by step, experience Restitution to perfection of mind and body and morals, lost through sin in Eden and redeemed by the great Sacrifice at Calvary. These are not now of the "flock," for they are not invited to the divine nature and a heavenly mansion, but will be invited to earthly nature and Paradise restored during the reign of Messiah. "WHEN HE WHO IS OUR LIFE APPEARS WE SHALL
APPEAR WITH HIM"
These other sheep are particularly mentioned by our Master in Matt. 25:31-46. This parable of "the sheep and the goats" belongs, not to this Age--the Gospel Age --but to the coming Age--during the Messianic reign. The introduction of the parable (vs. 31) shows this, saying, "When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy messengers with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory, and before him shall be gathered all nations; and he shall separate them one from another as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats."
The Savior has not yet appeared in his glory, and the promise is that "When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye [the Church, the sheep of the present Age] also appear with him in glory." (Col. 3:4.) In a word, the overcoming "sheep" of the Gospel Age will be associated with the Great Shepherd in his work of dealing with the world of mankind during his reign. Then all mankind will be on judgment or trial, to be tested with a view to proving who will develop the sheep-like disposition, and who will develop the goat-like disposition.
THE DIVIDING OF THE SHEEP WILL BE IN PROGRESS
DURING THE MESSIANIC REIGN During that thousand years all who develop the spirit of obedience will be accepted as members of the Shepherd's flock, on the right hand of favor, as worthy of eternal life; and at the close of that Dispensation will hear his words, "Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the Kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world."--Vs. 34.
Those of the contrary spirit who, under the favorable conditions of that glorious time, will fail to develop the characteristics of the Lord's sheep--gentleness, meekness, love--will be accounted unworthy of eternal life, unworthy of being considered among the Lord's sheep. By that time these will have taken their places on his left hand of disfavor. Then will they be rejected. The sheep class will abide in the Lord's favor and be granted an abundant entrance into everlasting life; while the goat class will be rejected as unworthy of eternal life and will be sent away to experience his disfavor of everlasting punishment.
That punishment, however, will not be everlasting torture, but everlasting death--a death which will last through all eternity; for the Lord will not again become a sacrifice, nor will he offer further opportunity to those rejecting the Divine arrangement during that glorious reign. As in the parable a goat is used to symbolize those who are contrary to the Lord, so fire is used as a symbol of the destruction which will come upon the goat class. Fire is the most destructive agency known and is fitly used to symbolize destruction. Verse 46 of this parable might very properly be read, "These shall go away into everlasting cutting off (Greek, kolasin), [from life], but the righteous into life eternal,"

67

Sheep, other sheep, other other sheep, Three classes of sheep?

by garybuss in

i got this message from a forum member.. i think you may be confusing the wts' understanding of the "sheep" of matthew chapter 25 (who have not yet been separated from the "goats") and the "other sheep" of john chapter 10. the two groups are not (i.e.

no longer) considered synonymous.. .

what am i missing?

bennyk

Originally, (And by "Originally", I mean the doctrine as it was introduced in 1935) the terms "Great Crowd" and "Other Sheep" were synonomous. The "Other Sheep" were declared to be an "Earthly Class" because the "Great Crowd" was an "Earthly Class."

Actually, it's rather the other way around. Russell believed that the Great Crowd was a heavenly class (though less faithful than the “Bride Class” [144 000]). Rutherford taught the same until 1935, when he identified the Great Crowd as being made up of Other Sheep. The Other Sheep had long been believed an earthly class.

Russell’s teaching was that the Other Sheep [John 10] and Sheep [Matt.25] both were an (i.e. ONE) earthly class to be separated in the Millennium. (See the article “Other Sheep Not of This Fold” [WT Reprints page 4784]). In the 15. October 1923 Watch Tower, Rutherford retained the belief that these Other-Sheep/Sheep were an earthly class, but changed the time of the separation of the Sheep and Goats. The Other Sheep [John 10] and Sheep [Matt. 25] parted ways (became two groups) after the change of the WTS' interpretation of the parable of the Separation of the Sheep and Goats. Regarding the Sheep and Goats, the 1997 QfR concludes with the words: "As The Watchtower showed, Jesus will soon sit on his throne and pronounce sentence, people being judicially separated in a final sense to life or to cutting-off." In contrast, the Society still teaches that the Other Sheep are not declared righteous for eternal life in a final sense until after the Second Test following the Millennium. (Rev. 20)

My question remains: Who are these Sheep of Matthew chapter 25? The Society can no longer identify them in a manner consistent with their current teachings.

67

Sheep, other sheep, other other sheep, Three classes of sheep?

by garybuss in

i got this message from a forum member.. i think you may be confusing the wts' understanding of the "sheep" of matthew chapter 25 (who have not yet been separated from the "goats") and the "other sheep" of john chapter 10. the two groups are not (i.e.

no longer) considered synonymous.. .

what am i missing?

bennyk

“Thanks bennyk, So as the Watch Tower teaching stands, the separation of the sheep and the goats that occurs after the Great Tribulation, could occur AFTER the end of the 1,000 year judgment period. That would mean the goats would live with the sheep applicants for one thousand years. Am I following you?”

Not Quite. Russell taught that the Separation of the Sheep and Goats was to occur for most humans at the End of the Millennium. (Russell also taught that the truly recalcitrant sinner could be declared a Goat and be cut off everlastingly even during the Millennium.) In contrast, The Society began teaching in the 15. Oct. 1995 Watchtower that the Separation takes place in the “near future” and “soon” after the beginning of the Great Tribulation -- thus apparently BEFORE and/or during Armageddon. Note the following:

*** w97 7/1 pp. 30-31 Questions From Readers ***
The Watchtower of October 15, 1995, showed why these verses apply after the great tribulation begins….
The articles in The Watchtower dealing with the sheep and the goats noted: “While the judging as described in the parable is in the near future, even now something vital is taking place….
As The Watchtower showed, Jesus will soon sit on his throne and pronounce sentence, people being judicially separated in a final sense to life or to cutting-off.

(I think the above statements preclude this Judgment being placed more than one thousand years in the future.)

So, if I understand the Society correctly and consistently…
1) The “Other Sheep” are anyone “having the prospect of life on earth” (*** w95 4/15 p. 31 Questions from Readers) This class includes all non-anointed Christians (they have the prospect even now) as well as anyone who will be resurrected. This class is not yet finally judged.
2) The Sheep of Matthew Chapter 25 are those who are “separated … to everlasting life.” (w97 7/1 pp. 30-31 Questions From Readers)

The problem which the Society has not addressed is that this would mean that the “Great Crowd” of “Other Sheep” (by virtue of their not being “Goats”) are “judicially separated in a final sense to life” in the “near future” (again, w97 7/1 pp. 30-31 Questions From Readers)
– emphatically NOT at the End of the Thousand Years (Rev. 20:5) Current teachings are clearly not consistent.

67

Sheep, other sheep, other other sheep, Three classes of sheep?

by garybuss in

i got this message from a forum member.. i think you may be confusing the wts' understanding of the "sheep" of matthew chapter 25 (who have not yet been separated from the "goats") and the "other sheep" of john chapter 10. the two groups are not (i.e.

no longer) considered synonymous.. .

what am i missing?

bennyk

The difference between the Other Sheep and the Sheep of Matthew chap. 25 is very subtle. (It is also incorrect). The Other Sheep are "people having the prospect of life on earth" (could include just about anyone who dies at least five minutes before the Great Tribulation), whereas the Sheep (Matt. 25) are "people being judicially separated in a final sense to life." These definitions are found in the *** w95 4/15 p. 31 Questions From Readers bzw. the w97 7/1 pp. 30-31 Questions From Readers.

It was because Matt. 25 portrays the judgment as final that Russell placed it in a future Millennium; the Society now places it after the Great Tribulation begins. NOTE THIS: What is really astounding is that the WTS' new teaching means the Great Crowd (the subset of Other Sheep who survive Armageddon) should in theory be "judicially separated in a final sense to life" -- emphatically NOT to a thousand year Judgment Day, after which they might finally "come to life" (Rev. 20:5). I don't believe the Society thought it through... as is typical.

20

The GB is a cloaking device for the FDS

by cultswatter in

i spent my first 25 years in the jws and could never figure out who the fds was.

today it was bugging me - why can't i relate to the fds even though i now know it is nonsense, but even more important, why can't jws understand who the fds really is?.

let's look at some facts.

bennyk

I don't think Gary means that an official Doctrine has been stated, but rather that the last paragraphs 01. May 2007 QfR completely eviscerate the authority of any F&DS class members outside of the Governing Body.

48

Comments You Will Not Hear at the 5-20-07 WT Review (Humbly Submit)

by blondie in

humbly submitting to loving shepherds.

*** w87 6/15 p. 15 par.

500-501 par.

bennyk

This entire Watchtower article was a steaming pile of horse excrement.

But any failure or mistakes on the part of certain elders would not justify an insubordinate attitude on our part .

That must be why John spoke so highly of Diotrephes (3 John 9, 10).

I'm certain Paul would have encouraged everyone to submit and obey those unfaithful Elders in Ephesus (Acts 20:29,30)

Jesus evidently did not agree with the GB's thinking, for he says regarding the Congregation in Ephesus: "I know your deeds... that you cannot bear bad men, and that you put those to the test who say they are Apostles, but they are not, and you found them liars." (Rev. 2: 2)

The Governing Body would applaud the Nuremberg Defense ("But my superior officer told me I must [insert crime here]"). Does anyone really believe that Jesus, who "searches the kidneys and hearts, and will give to YOU individually according to your deeds" (Rev. 2:23), will accept such an excuse favourably? The Allied Court did not. Apparently the Society wishes to inculcate the thought that others will bear the judgment and punishment for an individual's actions. Yet the Scriptures teach that "each of us will render an account for HIMSELF to God." (Rom. 14: 10)

9

My Mother is studying WT literature with a 7th Day Adventist and wants info

by OnTheWayOut in

jw
friends

my mother is not computer savvy, so she asked me to look up 7th day advents and the woman,.

ellen white, who founded it.

i will print a bunch of information for her from wikipedia to help.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/seventh_day_adventist.

bennyk

Perhaps the SeventhDayAdventist could make use of the following:

http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/12/118225/1.ashx ("Deliverance at Hand" every decade for 120 years!)

15

Crisis of Conscience/ISoCF Library Campaign

by AK - Jeff in

many libraries do not have copies yet, as it is far from 'mainstream' reading for most people.

i propose that we can all do a small deed that can/might be a huge favor to our former 'brethren' in the 'truth'.

check with the local library, see if they have the books on the shelves.

bennyk

Yup. Our donations are still being processed, however.

We also donated Combatting Cult Mind Control by Steven Hassan. This is good because it is not "apostate" (doesn't specifically mention the Watch Tower Society) and thus permissible for active Witnesses to read. They will be interested to discover that the WTS shares many characteristics with the "Moonies."