Posts by adelmaal

126

I still think it might be the truth - what is wrong with me?

by slimboyfat in

apostate literature - i have read the lot.

you name it - c of c, gentile times reconsidered, thirty tears a watchtower slave, the orwellian world of jehovah's witness, apocalypse delayed, and the freeminds and watchtower observer sites, so on and so on.

and i have been reading the posts on this site regularly pretty much since it started, and hourglass before it.

adelmaal

Witnesses never claims that God told them the dates

ROFLOL -- looks like you need to go back and reread CoC.

126

I still think it might be the truth - what is wrong with me?

by slimboyfat in

apostate literature - i have read the lot.

you name it - c of c, gentile times reconsidered, thirty tears a watchtower slave, the orwellian world of jehovah's witness, apocalypse delayed, and the freeminds and watchtower observer sites, so on and so on.

and i have been reading the posts on this site regularly pretty much since it started, and hourglass before it.

adelmaal

You go with your bad self slimfatboy. Enjoy your life of JW bliss. Who are we to rain on your parade?

29

Diary of a nobody

by New Worldly Translation in

hi, i'm new to these forums so i thought i would share some experiences of when i was a jw.. i was born in 1976 into a staunch jw family.

my grandparents, parents, aunties, uncles, cousins etc etc were all jw's going back to the 1950's.

when i was a child my parents, like a lot of jw parents, didn't let me have worldly friends.

adelmaal

Indispair:

Great post. I can really relate to the following statement:

I can't even go to church anymore as I don't believe the trinity

I too have a really hard time considering going to church because everytime I research a religion's beliefs this doctrine is so ingrained in them. I just don't get it. But I do feel I am finally able to establish a relationship with God and I am just taking in all the ideas, opinions, knowledge I can. I can finally read the Bible and not feel bad.

29

Diary of a nobody

by New Worldly Translation in

hi, i'm new to these forums so i thought i would share some experiences of when i was a jw.. i was born in 1976 into a staunch jw family.

my grandparents, parents, aunties, uncles, cousins etc etc were all jw's going back to the 1950's.

when i was a child my parents, like a lot of jw parents, didn't let me have worldly friends.

adelmaal

Welcome!

28 was around the time I hit the therapist and started getting my life together as well. It was a great journey and you are so fortunate to have gotten out prior to getting married, having kids, getting divorced, being disfellowshipped, etc. You are truly blessed!

You will figure it out. You are going through a growth period and it sounds like you are on the right track. Jump into life head first and enjoy it. You deserve to enjoy the world around you and get involved in it.

I spent time alone working on my debts, my career, taking care of my kids, going to a therapist and then I met a wonderful man on Match.Com. My life after having been a JW has only gotten better since I left. Even though I had some lonely and rough times for awhile there.

I'm glad you are here and I wish you well. Reading your story really made me see what my daughter must be going through with her dad. She is only turning 10 but she is being raised as a JW 50% of the time when she is with her dad. I just hope I can help her not to have to suffer as you and so many others have.

15

They just DO NOT think!!!

by Jez in

jw
friends

during talks, the audience just don't think.

the speaker can shoot off some stat, a comment, but "where is the evidence for what you just said?".

the speaker can give a really great story about how a drug addict became a jw, how it saved his life, but do they think: "yes, that is one neg example in the world, but what about the positive examples?

adelmaal

I hear ya Jez. I think it's because every talk, every WT article, every study aid from JWs starts out with something negative about worldly people, about governments, about false religion, about the United Nations. They are truly conditioned to think "JWs good; everything/everyone else bad". Eliminate critical thinking, which is what they try so hard to do and your audience will believe anything you tell them. Especially if you are saying it on a daily basis...

35

Can anyone help with info to refute only 144,000 going to heaven?

by The Leological One in

jw
friends

i've recently shown my wife this forum (she's a df'd jw who does still hold fast to jw views).

she's been really depressed and feels down on herself constantly because she wasn't a better witness and seems to feel she has no hope of a personal relationship with god now that she's df'd.

i was a little upset a moment ago trying to get her out of her depression by pushing my point of view that the wt is full of $hit regarding a great many number of things, the least of which that only 144,000 people are going to heaven/effectively can be saved.

adelmaal

I would suggest that instead of bombarding her with all sorts of scriptures and explanations, you might want to point out that some Christian groups do not believe that anyone goes to heaven (Christadelphians, Church of God Abrahamic Faith).

Cygnus:

While your approach certainly simplifies things for a JW, which is of great benefit to them I don't think it will work up front with one who still believes all their Bible truths. JWs complicate everything and IMHO the only way to reason with one initially is to show them Bible truths and reasonings that mess up their psycho babble. She will respect it coming from the Bible. She will not respect it coming from "other religions" who do not believe anyone is going to heaven. She thinks "other relions" are part of the Harlot/Babylon The Great and they are going to be destroyed. I don't think she will initially respect anything coming from that source. Just my .02.

26

So How Does Your "Never Been A J Dub" Partner Cope With All Of This?

by Englishman in

jw
friends

mine does very well!.

she's astonished at the df'ing thing more than anything else.

she reckons it's all about control and power.

adelmaal

My hubby just thinks I was crazy to have ever been a part of it. We did not meet until after I had already been away from that religion for awhile. He takes an "I'm so not interested in all that drama" stanse. Never has been interested in JWs and never will be. He's quite apathetic to it all. Just thinks it's a wierd religion and is at least glad I will never go back to it.

35

1 John 4:1

by mjl in

went to the meeting this morning and stayed for the talk.

the speaker used a text that i thought was very ironic, 1 john 4:1 which reads " beloved ones, do not believe every inspired expression, but test the inspired expressions to see whether they origanate with god, because many false prophets have gone forth into the world.

" i found this ironic becuase we were trained not to test anything in the publications and never question what we hear from the platform.

adelmaal

"So Friends, hypothetically, and I repeat hypothetically, even if an angel were to come down here and land on this platform, today, at this moment, and to present something to us that didn't fit into the pattern of truth, what should we be ready to do? We should be ready to say, "Hold on there, that doesn't fit into the pattern, and I am not going to listen to it!", Yes even if it were one of Jehovah's angels."
Minute 23, Beware Of The Voice Of Strangers, District Convention Of Jehovah's Witnesses, Selkirk, Manitoba, July 12, 2003

The above certainly resembles the following scripture: Galatians 1:6-8.

Could certainly be applied to the use of the WT/Awake! in addition to the Bible. Something beyond what was originally declared as good news. Could also be applied to the use of the Book of Mormon. Basically, this scripture to me means if you try to go beyond what is said in the Bible/what was originally taught by Jesus and you teach it as new light you are in big trouble!

8

A JW vs. Philip Morris, Inc.

by TresHappy in

lawsuit: his lawyers say philip morris inc. knew its product was dangerous and addictive.

11:32 pm pst on monday, march 7, 2005

by john welsh / the press-enterprise

adelmaal

I think this would definitely fall under the "NOT BEING FREE FROM ACCUSATION" category!

My friend was removed as a pioneer and privately reproved for not being "free from accusation". It was such a joke! But the double standard is certainly glaring... The elders thought she was lying on her service report so they removed her from the regular pioneer list purely because she was not "visible" out in service. This somehow meant she lied on her service report and was stumbling others - ROFLMAO!!! Might I add she has Systemic Lupus, which prevents her from being out in the direct sunlight during the peak service hours.

She did not take this counsel humbly and was also privately reproved as a result of her non-repentant attitude.

I would think if my friend could be removed as a pioneer purely because of the fact that they perceived she was not out in service the WTBTS can be rightfully slammed for being perceived to have relations with Philip Morris, Inc. Their name is on the WTBTS's tax paperword for God's sake - right?

35

Can anyone help with info to refute only 144,000 going to heaven?

by The Leological One in

jw
friends

i've recently shown my wife this forum (she's a df'd jw who does still hold fast to jw views).

she's been really depressed and feels down on herself constantly because she wasn't a better witness and seems to feel she has no hope of a personal relationship with god now that she's df'd.

i was a little upset a moment ago trying to get her out of her depression by pushing my point of view that the wt is full of $hit regarding a great many number of things, the least of which that only 144,000 people are going to heaven/effectively can be saved.

adelmaal

Here's some info. I found with regard to the 144,000, the heavenly hope and the earthly hope:

Who Is the Great crowd?
Revelation 7:9-1 5. The great crowd Is a future people during a future time, the great tribulation.
What is the location of the great crowd?
"Before the throne" of God. Revelation 7:9, 15. Where are the 144,000? In exactly the same place, "before the throne" Revelation 14:1, 3. Compare 6:8-9; 6:9,11; 11:16.
Could being "before the throne" Possibly be integrated .in the sense of be in a before the queen of England while living In North America? No. The great crowd will serve God "in his temple". Revelation 7:1 5.And where is the tabernacle of God which is spread over the great crowd? Heaven! Revelation 7:9,15a; 13:6; 15:5-6.And where is the temple of God where the great crowd will serve? The temple of God is "in heaven." Revelation 11:19; 14:17; 15:5-6.Couldn't we say the great crowd Is really to be on earth In the outer courts of the temple? No. The great crowd is going to be "in heaven". Revelation 19:1.Oh. but couldn't the great crowd In heaven be a different great crowd than the great crowd of chapter 7 ?
1) Notice who is a part of the great crowd in chapter 7 and chapter 19. Chapter 19 - 24 elders, 4 beasts, servants, the bride or the saints, angels and an army (people). Chapter 7 - people from around the earth who live during the great tribulation, angels, the elders, four beasts.
2)Notice what the great crowd Is saying in chapter 7 mind chapter 19. Chapter 7 Salvation, glory, honor, power. Chapter 19 -- salvation, glory, honor, power. 3) Notice what the great crowd Is wearing in chapter I and chapter 19. Chapter 7 - Vs. 9 white robes, vs. 13 white robes, vs. 13 white robes washed in the blood. Chapter 19 Verse 8 fine linen clean and white which is the righteousness of the saints, Verse 14 fine linen white and clean (the blood washing Is implied in verse 13 referring to the blood of Jesus)
The burden of proof is on the Watchtower to prove the great crowd-for some reason cannot go to heaven? What is this "proof "?
"The righteous shall inherit the land, and dwell therein for ever." Psalm 37:29. So will the great crowd never go to heaven? Are not 144,000 righteous ? Don?t they go to heaven ? Then we could say they don?t inherit the earth. Jesus said my kingdom is not of this world !Then where is it until it comes to earth ?But haven't you heard, "Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth." Matthew 5:5. Are the meek, J.W.'s who miss heaven? Then why aren't J.W.s "poor In spirit", verse 3, or "pure in heart!', verse 8, "persecuted for righteousness sake'. Verse 10 , or reviled, persecuted or spoken evil against falsely, verses 11-12? These go to heaven and see God!Don't you think God-had?a purpose in creating this earth a paradise for man to dwell In?
The inspired Scriptures declare "heaven" and "paradise" are synonymous a to be used interchangeably since the resurrection of Christ. 11 Corinthians 12:2, 4. Is there really a verse of Scripture which reads, "paradise earth"? No
Someone inherits the "new Earth" somebody have to be here to live on it?
Revelation 22:1. Indeed' But does God slam the door of heaven shut and say, "Now you will never leave here again?" No. "The gates of it shall not be shut at all," verse 25 explains. Those who claim to have an earthly hope also hope their names are written in the Lambs Book of Life. There is better news. Those whose names are written in the Lamb's Book of Life will enter "it. Revelation 21:27. "It !' In the context of the chapter refers to heavenly Jerusalem. Believers get BOTH the new heaven and the new earth in the salvation package! "It" comes down from heaven with God to earth at the end of the Millennium.
Aim the 144.000 rule as- kings and -priests over the earth, don't they have to have somebody to rule over ?
Wrong question! The 144,000 rule "on" the earth. Revelation 6:10. The New World Translation says "over" but the Greek says "upon". The Watchtower insists a resurrected and glorified body could not go to heaven, so it tries to keep the kings and priests above the earth as only spirit creatures. Living Christians at the end of the great tribulation will populate the thousand year reign of Jesus Christ. Isn't It reasonable that the kings and priests will reign over them? Secondly, the 144,000 are never spoken of as being kings, priests or the bride of Christ In Revelation 7:3-8 or 14:1-6. They are a whole new group taken from Israel all at one time in the tribulation.
Didn't Jesus say He had other sheep of a different fold who would remain on the earth? John 10:16.1
No. Jesus was talking to Jews and introducing them to the world-wide evangelism of gentiles,who are the other sheep. Jesus did NOT say they would remain separate. Quite the opposite! "There shall be one fold, and one shepherd." Not 2 folds, one in heaven and one on earth. Eph. 2 says he broke down the middle wall of partition making them one all the sheep are in 1 fold and have 1 shepherd, Not 2 shepherds (John 10:11) one In heaven and one on earth. To take this Scripture and still insist there will remain 2 folds is to distort and misrepresent the Lord Jesus Christ and Scripture! Ephesians 1:1 0.
Isn't there an earthly hope for one group of Christians and a heavenly hope for a different group!
No. There is "one hope". Ephesians 4:4. The hope, or confidence, is to be wherever Jesus is. There Is only one body. I Corinthians 12:12,13,27; Ephesians 4:1116; Colossians 1:6. Scripture emphasizes "heavenly places". Ephesians 2:6. We become like our heavenly Jesus. Philippians 3:20-21; 1 John 3:2. We go to a heavenly kingdom. 11 Timothy 4:18. We go to the Father's house and be with Jesus. Where is the Father? Heaven. John 14:1-3. Those who sleep in Jesus will come with Him. I Thessalonians 4-14. After our earthly body is gone we get an immortal body in heaven. I Corinthians 15:42-66; 11 Corinthians 5:1,6-9. If you have believed on Jesus through the testimony of the apostles, you will be with Jesus. John 17:20, 24. J.W?s teach people from five different areas were all destined for heaven. I Peter 1:1, 4. Conservatively speaking, 144,000 people were saved from Acts 2:41-6:7, before Judge Rutherford took- away the heavenly hope in the 1930's. Matthew 23:13. The church at Ephesus alone was estimated from 20,000 to 26,000 people! The church of Jerusalem was larger than that. History tells us in 70 AD over 100,000 Jews fled Jerusalem to Pela because they remembered Jesus words of Jerusalem surrounded by armies. We have is heavenly calling, our citizenship is in heaven. Heb.11:13 tells us all who die in faith (not some) were strangers and pilgrims on earth, vs.16 they desired a heavenly country of which God has prepared a city for them.
But believers -from before the time of Christ cannot go to heaven, so won't they be resurrected to life on earth with the great crowd?
No. Old Testament saints will be in "heaven"! Matthew 8:1 1; Job 19: 25-26; Psalm 23:6; 73:24-25. The Bible does not contradict itself. Abraham looked for a city made by God, was a stranger on earth, and goes to the heavenly city prepared by God, Heavenly Jerusalem! Hebrews 11:8-16; 12:22.
Are the 144,000 really the J.W. grandpas and grandmas who claim to be anointed?.
The 144,000 will be virgins, not grandparents. Revelation 14:1, 4. They will be too busy serving God during the great tribulation to focus on watching out for the welfare of a family. The 144,000 will be sealed in the future after the 6th Seal, the Day of Wrath and the holding back of the four winds (Revelation 6:12,17; 7:1,3).
What nationality will these 144 000 be?,
According to Scripture, Jewish. Revelation 7:4. As the great crowd is from every nation and tribe and people and tongue, in contrast the 144,000 are sealed out of every tribe of the sons of Israel, the twelve tribes(Revelation 7: 9,4). These are the same twelve tribes that come from Jacob. The 144,000 are not sealed to become Israelites, they are sealed OUT OF Israel to become members of the 144,000 Christian evangelists. In both Revelation 7 and 14, a clear distinction is made between the 144,000 sealed Israelites and "every nation." If we take "every nation" to be literal, we should also take "Israel" to be literal. For the Watchtower to go from literal to symbolic in the middle of a verse is complete Scripture twisting taking it out of the context it was written in. And how can anyone take 12 symbolic numbers, add them up and come up with a literal number of 144,000? If the Watchtower correctly says they aren't Jews, then why is the number of 144,000 literal? If they aren't Jews, then what is the long explanation of the tribes of Israel for? Rabbis, when asked if this is a literal list of the names of the tribes of Israel say it is authentic. The names vary in Scripture, due to serious sin and the loss of recognition of certain descendants of Jacob. The Jewish people were only laid aside temporarily so that Gentiles who are not of Israel can have salvation. In the future Romans 11:1 6-26 says all of Israel (the nation) will be saved. In contrast to the 144,000, the future kings are from every tribe, tongue, people and nation which happens to be from their great crowd. (Revelation 5:9-10).
Doesn't the Watchtower have the correct light on Scripture through the faithful and discreet salve?
The Watchtower has serious problems trying to interpret Revelation. They published The Finished Mystery in 1917, Was the mystery all over as they boasted? No. The latest book, Revelation - lts Grand Climax At Hand! is vastly different. The seven trumpets of Revelation lead from one trumpet into another according to Scripture. The order of the seven trumpets according to the Watchtower book is the 7, then 1,2,3,4,5,6. That?s no way to count to seven! God didn?t why do they?
Is the great crowd really excluded from heaven?
The Watchtower's, Vindication- book three, p. 204, makes it clear the great crowd is expected to go to heaven. Why? Ezekiel says so! "This picture shows the position of the 'great multitude'. Even and anon someone advances the conclusion that the 'great multitude' will not be a spiritual class. The prophecy of Ezekiel shows that such conclusion is erroneous. The fact that their position is seven steps higher than the outside shows that they must be made spirit creatures." Was this message from the Watchtower light or darkness? Did the Watchtower have the light of God's truth? Proverbs 4:18. If not, how does Scripture describe the teachers who taught this darkness? Proverbs 4:19.Why did Jesus say you MUST be born again to enter the kingdom of HEAVEN ? John 3:3,6. He didn't! He said you will not see or enter the kingdom of God unless you are born again. You will not reside in any part of God's kingdom unless you have been born of the Spirit. If this provision is only for the 144,000 then all the J.W?s today, those part of the great crowd will not have the kingdom! However It is all inclusive. I John 5:1. If you have a kingdom message, its not suppose to be paradise earth but you MUST be born again into it.
ABRAHAM, ISAAC AND JACOB IN THE HEAVENLY KINGDOM?

Matthew 8:11,12: "But I tell you that many from eastern

Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of the heavens; whereas the sons of the kingdom will be thrown into the darkness outside."

Jesus is clearly speaking of something in the future. ("Many ... will come.") Should we view this as merely figurative? The March 15, 1962 Watchtower, pages 191 and 192, argues that Abraham stands for Jehovah God, Isaac stands for Jesus Christ, and Jacob stands for the 144,000 (see also page 28 of the September 1, 1978 Watchtower). They say this is all that will be in the heavenly kingdom. However, such a view is inconsistent with Jesus' words. For "Abraham, Isaac and Jacob" are not the only ones in the heavenly kingdom! "With" them will be "many from eastern parts and western parts"! That would be many more than just Jehovah, Jesus and 144,000 resurrected humans. The December 1, 1986 Watchtower, page 9, relates some of the context of Jesus' words:

"`The sons of the kingdom . . .thrown into the darkness outside' are natural Jews who do not accept the opportunity offered first to them of being rulers with Christ. Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob represent God's Kingdom arrangement. Thus Jesus is relating how Gentiles will be welcomed to recline at the heavenly table, as it were, `in the kingdom of the heavens.'" (Emphasis ours; ellipsis in text)

The context of Matthew 8:11,12 (when a Gentile army officer manifested his faith) makes it clear Jesus is referring to the fact that many Gentiles would come into the Kingdom. Considering that many Gentiles `from the East and from the West' would recline with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob' in the heavenly Kingdom makes the Watchtower Society's interpretation improbable. Besides, Jesus uses similar words in another sermon as recorded at Luke 13:28,29. There He speaks of "Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets" with people from the East, West, North and South also reclining at the table in the Kingdom. If Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are figurative, who do "all the prophets" symbolize? Really, can't we just accept Jesus' words at face value?

Hebrews 11:16 (speaking of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob): "But now they are reaching out for a better place, that is, one belonging to heaven. Hence God is not ashamed of them, to be called upon as their God, for he has made a city ready for them." (Compare Hebrews 12:22,23; 13:14).

12,000 & 144,000-LITERAL OR SYMBOLIC?

Revelation 7:4-8 speaks of 144,000 sealed from the 12 tribes of Israel. 12,000 are to be sealed from each tribe. On pages 12 and 13 of Commentary on the Letter of James (published in 1979 by the Watchtower Society) we are told:

"Since natural Israel consisted of 12 tribes, it logically follows that spiritual Israel would be spoken of as having 12 tribes to show that it was a complete spiritual nation, with no part or tribe missing. There is no numerical imbalance within spiritual Israel, for the Bible book of Revelation symbolically reveals that an equal number-12,000-is sealed from every tribe. (Rev. 7:4-8)" (Emphasis ours)

If the number 12,000 from each tribe is symbolic, wouldn't the total be symbolic also? If the number 144,000 is literal, shouldn't there be 12 literal groups of 12,000 comprising the 144,000? To say the 12,000 is symbolic and the total 144,000 is literal is inconsistent. (Interestingly, most Jehovah's Witnesses would interpret the numbers 12,000 and 144 elsewhere in the book of Revelation to be symbolic, as at Revelation 21:16,17.) Bible commentators differ whether the numbers 12,000 and 144,000 should be understood literally or symbolically, but it is obvious the numbers should be considered both literal or both symbolic.

WHERE DO THE GREAT CROWD SERVE GOD?

Revelation 7:9,10,15: "After these things I saw, and look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands. And they keep on crying with a loud voice, saying: `Salvation we owe to our God, who is seated on the throne, and to the Lamb. That is why they are before the throne of God; and they are rendering him sacred service day and night in his temple [Greek: naos]; and the One seated on the throne will spread his tent over them." Compare this with:

Revelation 7:11: "And all the angels were standing around the throne and the elders and the four living creatures, and they fell upon their faces before the throne and worshiped God." In the same vision the angels, elders, and 4 living creatures are also said to be before the throne. Where are they? In heaven or on the earth?

OUTER COURTYARDS NOT PART OF "NAOS"

What does it mean when it says the "great crowd" worship God "in his temple"? Doesn't that indicate they will be in heaven? The Watchtower Society says the "great crowd" worship God in a particular location in God's temple. According to the August 15, 1980 Watchtower, page 15, the "great crowd" worship in the outer courtyards of God's temple - the Court of the Gentiles (the nations) - which they say represents earthly worshipers, not heavenly worshipers. Consider, please, how the rest of the book of Revelation shows us how the Greek word naos ("temple") is used:

Revelation 11:1,2: "And a reed like a rod was given me as he said: `Get up and measure the temple sanctuary [Greek: naos] of God and the altar and those worshiping in it. But as for the courtyard that is outside the temple sanctuary [Greek: naos], cast it clear out and do not measure it, because it has been given to the nations, and they will trample the holy city underfoot for forty-two months.'"

In the New World Translation the same Greek word naos is translated as "temple" in Revelation 7 and as "temple [sanctuary]" in Revelation 11. (The Watchtower Society's Kingdom Interlinear Translation translates it both times as "divine habitation.") Why the difference? Evidently the Society does not want to admit that the "great crowd" worship in the heavenly sanctuary. Instead, they try to divide God's temple into 2 areas. The Society says the inner temple area (closest to the sanctuary) represents heaven. They say the outer courtyards represent earthly worshipers. That is why the Society teaches that the great crowd worship in the outer courtyards of the temple - the Court of the Gentiles, as in King Herod's temple. However, Revelation 11:1,2 argues persuasively against the idea that the outer courtyards would be included in the naos. It says the the courtyard given to the Gentiles (the nations) is "outside the naos," outside the temple. In fact, the Greek word naos always refers to God's heavenly temple in every other place it appears in the book of Revelation! (Naos occurs in the Greek text at Revelation 3:12; 7:15; 11:1,2,19*; 14:15,17; 15:5,6,8*; 16:1,17; 21:22*.) ( * "Naos" occurs twice in these verses. The NWT translates some of these simply as "sanctuary.")

THE GREAT CROWD IN HEAVEN?

Revelation 19:1: "After these things I heard what was as a loud voice of a great crowd in heaven. They said: `Praise Jah, you people! The salvation and the glory and the power belong to our God.'" Compare Revelation 7:9,10. Notice the similarity in wording between Revelation 19:1 and Revelation 7:9,10 (quoted on page 4).

Some say the "great crowd" here are angels. However, why would angels ascribe salvation to God? The angels that sinned will not be saved (2 Peter 2:4). The faithful angels do not need salvation. "WHAT ABOUT THE NEW EARTH?"

Revelation 21:1,2: "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the former heaven and the former earth had passed away, and the sea is no more. I saw also the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband."

Traditional Christianity affirms there will be both a new heaven and a new earth. Revelation chapters 21 and 22 seem to indicate there will be some sort of uniting of heaven and earth, when the New Jerusalem descends from heaven. (We are not told exactly how this uniting of heaven and earth will take place. Nor do we know what sort of physical changes may be required.) This is what some call "the final state." George Eldon Ladd writes:

"The final state of the Kingdom of God is a new heaven and a new earth ([Revelation] 21:1ff.) This expresses a theology of creation that runs throughout the Bible.The Old Testament prophets picture the Kingdom of God in terms of a redeemed earth (Isa. 11:6-9; Joel 3:18; Amos 9:13-15). This is described in terms of a new heaven and new earth even in the Old Testament (Isa. 65:17;66:22). . . However, a fundamental theology underlies these expectations, even though they must be clarified by progressive revelation: that man's ultimate destiny is an earthly one. . . The New Testament does not outstrip this theology, although it reveals more than the Old Testament does by showing that the newness of the eternal order is much more radical than God had disclosed to the prophets.Jesus spoke of the regeneration of the world (Mt. 19:28), and Paul spoke of the redemption of the created order (Rom. 8:20-21)." A Theology of the New Testament, by George Eldon Ladd. Published by Wm. B. Eerdmans, 1974. Page 631. (Emphasis ours)

Revelation 5:10: "You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God, and they will reign on the earth." (New International Version) The New World Translation has "reign over" which is a possible translation, but not the most literal translation. However, the Kingdom Interlinear shows the basic meaning of the Greek word here is "upon." Initially, Christians will worship God in His temple in heaven (Revelation 7:9,15; 19:1). After that, in the final state, the saints (holy ones) will reign upon the earth, when the New Jerusalem descends from heaven. That is described in detail in chapters 21 and 22 of Revelation.

"WHO WILL THE HOLY ONES RULE OVER?"

WILL YOU BE OUTSIDE OF THE NEW JERUSALEM?

Revelation 5:10 (quoted in the section above) says the holy ones (saints) will reign. Some claim this means the holy ones must have subjects. However, take time to read the description of the final state in Revelation chapters 21 and 22 and it becomes obvious that the New Jerusalem is the home of the redeemed. What of those outside the city? Carefully consider this passage:

Revelation 22:14,15: "`Happy are those who wash their robes [compare Rev. 7:14], that the authority to go to the trees of life may be theirs and that they may gain entrance into the city by its gates. Outside are the dogs and those who practice spiritism and the fornicators and the murderers and the idolaters and everyone liking and carrying on a lie.'" What is your hope? Do you hope `to gain entrance into the city,' or will you be outside with those judged by God?

Does the fact the holy ones (saints) reign mean they must have subjects? Compare this passage:

1 Peter 2:9,10: "But you are `a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for special possession, that you should declare abroad the excellencies' of the one that called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. For you were once not a people, but are now God's people; you were those who had not been shown mercy, but are now those who have been shown mercy."

The early Christians that Peter wrote to were already a "royal priesthood" at that time. Since they were called royalty, did that mean they ruled over others? Or, is the emphasis on the glories Christians share in because of their position in union with Christ? (Compare Ephesians 2:4-7 where Paul says that Christians in Ephesus had been `raised up and seated together in the heavenly places in union with Christ.') Christians already share royal blessings. However, this doesn't indicate that they rule over others. Nor is that indicated at Revelation 5:10.

Anthony Hoekema gives a possible additional meaning for the reign of the holy ones:

"One might wonder over whom these glorified saints will reign, since all human beings on the new earth will participate in this reigning. Perhaps the best answer to this question is that this will be a reigning over the new creation. Man will now be able to fulfill in a perfect way the mandate to have dominion over the earth which he could only fulfill imperfectly on the present earth. In the life to come, in other words, man will for the first time since the fall rule the earth properly." The Bible and the Future, by Anthony A. Hoekema. Published by Wm. B. Eerdmans, 1979. Page 283. (Emphasis ours)

So it is not a question of who the holy ones rule over, but of what they rule over. In discussing the description of the New Jerusalem given in Revelation chapter 21, Hoekema adds these interesting points (on page 285 of the above-mentioned book):

"The fact that the names of the twelve tribes are inscribed on the twelve gates (v. 12) and that the names of the twelve apostles are written on the twelve foundations (v. 14) suggests that the people of God on the new earth will include believers from both the Old Testament covenant community and from the church of the New Testament era."

"JOHN THE BAPTIST WON'T BE IN HEAVEN!"

Some interpret Jesus' words at Matthew 11:11 to mean John the Baptist will not be in the heavenly kingdom. Is this so?

Matthew 11:11: "Truly I say to you people, Among those born of women there has not been raised up a greater than John the Baptist; but a person that is a lesser one in the kingdom of the heavens is greater than he is."

Some say this means that one who will be `least' in the heavenly kingdom will be greater than John the Baptist. However, Jesus uses the present tense here: "is," not `will be.' Jesus was not speaking of future destinies in this verse. He was speaking about current blessings. While at times the Kingdom is spoken of as future, it is also spoken of as present. (Compare Colossians 1:13 where it says God has "transferred" [past tense] Christians into the Kingdom. See also Matthew 12:28; Mark 10:15; Luke 17:20,21.) Jesus inaugurated the Kingdom. John the Baptist had no part in that, except to introduce Jesus. So those who would be following Jesus (and thus be in the Kingdom) would be greater (more privileged) than John, who did not get involved with Jesus' ministry. This verse says nothing about John's final position