Posts by jaffacake

21

Is this prophecy by Jesus trustworthy?

by scout575 in

jw
friends

in the last chapter of the bible jesus is three times portrayed as saying: "i come quickly.

" the last of these three statements actually reads: "surely i come quickly.

" ( rev 22:7, 12, 20 ) does the passage of nearly 2000 years since those words were written indicate that this bible prophecy is trustworthy?

jaffacake

Scout

Thanks for your excellent reply, the vast majority of which I agree, at least to some extent.

I realize that your quesions are meant to be thought provoking to a certain kind of believer, and I respect that. I've done quite a bit of that kind of questioning myself, although I have tended to be more specific to JW doctrines.

Sometimes I don't intend to respond to your questions, but can't resist perhaps because 2 years ago I was in almost in complete agreement with everything you now say.

But the reason I butt in now and then is because many JWs, hurt by the organisation might benefit from having some awareness of other options that haveperhaps been hidden from them. Also, because this is a discussion forum. I will try to resist responding, but I can't promise.

Talking about who is right, I'll sign off with a great quote about inter-faith arguments, but could equally apply to whatever people's worldviews:

"What if a Christian sat down and said, well, actually I don't know much about God, and everything I do say is so inadequate as to be virtually false?' Then a Jew might say 'Its funny you should say that. I do not know much about God either.' How could they have an argument? And if they did, the winner might be the one who proved he knew less about God than the other."

c.u. on another thread Cheers!

6

The WTS and the name Jehovah.

by The Lone Ranger in

jw
friends

the wts makes a big thing that they are the only ones who use god's name jehovah, firstly its not true that they are the only ones, but it is true that they make a big thing about it more then any other religion and they seem proud of this and to their eyes it shows they are the true relgion.

but in another sense they have use the name so much that they have almost turned it into a trade mark, like they almost have a copyright to it, many in the world now when they hear the word 'jehovah" don't think of god but think of jehovahs' witness's..some crazy cult relgion.

so really they may have done more to dishonor gods name then those who refuse to use it at all.

jaffacake

http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/106478/1848309/post.ashx#1848309

30

ALL SCRIPTURE 'INSPIRED' BY GOD......

by Mary in

jw
friends

this doesn't make alot of sense to me, because the word "inspire" can have alot of different meanings, as i've copied from the merriam-webster online dictionary below.

while i definitely believe in god, i think that #5 is probably closer to the truth.

if i write a book or a song and say i was inspired by elvis, that doesn't mean that elvis wrote it or even approved it-----it simply means that i wrote it with him in mind.

jaffacake

Mary

Great posts. Yet some still cling to the modern minority idea of verbal inerrancy, that I like to call the 'as if by magic' theory.

At 2 Timothy 3:16 the writer says 'All scripture is God breathed and is useful for teaching......' The Greek wod used is theopneustos, which does mean 'breathed by' as IT said in his post above.

It clearly does not say written by, spoken by, or even dictated by. It was also referring only to the OT as the NT had not yet been written.

Muslims say God actually put words into the mouth of Muhammad, so the beliefs of JWs and fundamentalist Christians are more like Islam than Christian. The Holy Qur'an is recited by God in the Arabic language and human minds add nothing to the text. That's why it must be recited in the Arabic language.

But in the Bible, if God 'inspires' scriptures, and 'inspire' comes from the Greek 'pneuma', meaning breath, wind or spirit, what does this indicate?

Genesis says God formed man from the dust and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, so we are God-breathed, brought to life by God. Does this mean God dictates every human action? On the contrary, the breath or spirit of God gives life and freedom but does not dictate. So even the Bible seems to teach that its authors were free to write what they chose to write, perhaps akin to Mary's suggested definition 5.

21

Is this prophecy by Jesus trustworthy?

by scout575 in

jw
friends

in the last chapter of the bible jesus is three times portrayed as saying: "i come quickly.

" the last of these three statements actually reads: "surely i come quickly.

" ( rev 22:7, 12, 20 ) does the passage of nearly 2000 years since those words were written indicate that this bible prophecy is trustworthy?

jaffacake

Narkissos Thanks for comments...I accept your point, up to a point. Scout, To me there is clear evidence that Paul's millennialistic beliefs were indeed changing, and not just about the timing, but about who would be saved etc. I hope you can recognise that. It is the degree of literalism, for example in respect of the timetable, that I suggest was changing. You actually help to make my argument by quoting Romans 16:20? "The God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet SHORTLY." I would argue that reinterpretation had begun that led to a more spiritual understanding, and for example to the imminent making present of Christ in bread and wine, a sacramental interpretation. A change of mind, albeit gradual. But wrong predictions?...I just don't see how you still see predictions. Why does it tend to be only modern dogmatic religious leaders who would agree with your view of the nature of the bible? I don't really think it is a question of right or wrong in respect of specific texts, more about greater enlightenment or deeper understanding of the whole. I am not qualified to answer your questions about which scriptures to accept as truth and which error. With respect we seem poles apart in how we see the bible and God. You seem to suggest God could or should intervene to prevent tragedies in history. To me that is absurd, as a result of a very strange view of scriptures. Its just a book - no magic! I hope you don't think I consider I am right about all this. I have no better claim to truth and understanding than you or anyone else on this board. You may well be right in your (presumably atheist) beliefs than I might be wrong in mine. Strangely I suppose our positions on God were probably reversed several years ago. But I am sure we are both closer to the truth than JWs or fundamentalist Christians. I truly feel closer to atheism than to a reading of the bible you seem to suggest - as if it contained predictions, timetables and the like. My sole purpose for posting is to show a more sensible interpretation of the bible than the version you find it so easy to set up to knock down. I would post just the same if I were an athiest. If you really want answers about how to make reasonable judgements about what the bible really teaches, I would refer you to the works of any decent good bible scholars, masters in Hebrew & Greek who have read the ancient texts in their original languages, and who have published research work in peer-review journals, and who know what other good bible scholars have said and which bible commentaries give a fair range of plausible interpretations. They might not all agree, but I believe your questions would make many of them smile.

5

Horizon - A War On Science

by City Fan in

jw
friends

.

for anyone who's interested, bbc documentary series horizon is showing a program called 'a war on science' this thursday 26 jan 9pm on bbc2.

should be interesting!.

jaffacake

I watched this tonight - quite interesting.

The evolutionists (and the courts) showed the intelligent design supporters for what they are - completely unscientific.

I liked the quote that about evolution explains about 99% of what we know about life on earth, whereas intelligent design theory explains precisely zero.

Hey don't get me wrong, I'm a believer and have no problem speculating on the possibility of a creator, but not at the expense of good science. I'm not 100% sure that evolution is quite the whole answer as many believe. But it upsets me when folks try to pass I.D. off as scientific.

39

The facts: The Bible is a code book sent by aliens

by Franz in

jw
friends

"is satan another alien civilization ?

snake-like parasite, which lives in human host ?

is satan originally from the planet called hell ?

jaffacake

Franz. How can I take you seriously when you start your thread title with the words :"The Facts". That makes you sound exactly like a dogmatic JW elder.

facts? Prove it!

8

Jehovah's Witnesses claim that God must always be referred to as Jehovah

by Rook in

jw
friends

first, the word jehovah came about because the ancient jews had a superstitious dread of pronouncing the name yhwh for fear they would violate the commandment not to take god's name in vain.

to avoid the possibility of breaking this commandment, the jews substituted the name "adonai" (lord) or some other name in its place when ever they read it in scripture.

eventually the scribes inserted the vowels from adonai within the consonants yhwh and the result was yahowah, or jehovah.

jaffacake

What a great article by z. I made a very comprehensive study of this myself last year, with the help of some great material from the web, JW bibles etc.

Personally I accept the validity of the bible, and accept (as does the watchtower) that it has been faithfully and accurately preserved, despite the original manuscripts not being available.

Some portions (copies) of the NT date to just a few decades after the originals were written. Because I accept the most ancient Greek Christian manuscripts as being the best record possible of what the original authors actually wrote, I am convinced that it is wrong and unacceptable for a Christian to use the term Jehovah when reading the New Testament. Even the Tetragrammaton has no place in Greek Christian Scriptures. And this can be proved using only WTS publications, namely the NWT reference edition together with the Greek Interlinear translation. For me, this is as big a scandal as 'blood' or 'UN'

37

The end is not close..................so prove it !

by vitty in

jw
friends

im fading, and some of my family now realize we arent going to meetings.

everytime they phone or speak to me me, they keep reminding ( threatning) that the end is so close, dont give up now.. i just dont know how to respond, i know so much, but dont want to go into the un stuff yet ( dont want to sound apostate just yet) how can i say i dont believe the end is close !

that armageddon isnt iminent, what scripture can i use to back it up.

jaffacake

Vitty

1. Which other religion has such a hopeless track record at interpreting scripture and making wrong popphecies and predictions? They have been wrong about several hundreds of things which can now be proved and even they accept they were wrong. Their failure rate for all predictions has been precisely 100%.

2. Suggested reading - The sign of the last days by Carl Olof Johnsson. It refers to Watchtowers of the 1960s and 1970s admitting that Jesus' disciples did not believe Christ's presence would be invisible. JWs only fell back on that adventist theory because of yet more failed predictions.

13

WHAT WILL HAPPENED ABOUT DNA AFTER ARMAGEDDON?

by badboy in

jw
friends

dna may well have originated with viruses.. assuming that adam and eve had no dna because having something from a virus must be a sign of the fall, what will happened after armageddon.. .

will people be striped of dna in the new system?.

what would go in its place?.

jaffacake

What's Armageddon?

13

JWs are very much unlike early christians!

by greendawn in

jw
friends

do you think the jws are really modelled on the early church as they like to claim?

i don't think they come close to it in terms of doctrine, authority structure, or mindset.

eg they know nothing about charity towards their own or fellow humans in general, they have a very centralised power structure, they kick against any advice given to the fds, they never celebrate the eucharist, they are jehovah rather than christ centred.

jaffacake

I believe the rank & file JWs really do believe they are closer than other religions to how the early christians worshipped. The most basic research would reveal how mistaken they are in that view, but their only research material is watchtower publications...so some will never know any better - so sad.

Never mind early Christians, even the JWs were still worshipping Jesus Christ in 1945. They all used to partake of the bread and wine until the 1930s, you know - like the early Christians did.