Who and where are the statues of Artemus? And how are they pagan symbols? (rubs hands thinking this could be another for my collection...)
jaffacake
JoinedPosts by jaffacake
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27
I think I've finally had it! (long)
by lynnmelo insome of you may know that i had regularly been studying with the jw's for about two years, but i was never baptized.
i stumbled on some information about the child molestation scandal a few months ago, and that started me on the road to questioning the organization (for further details on my situation, see my topic history).. anyway, up until now, i had decided to just fade into the background, still attending sunday kh meetings because i want to attend some church, and i just don't know where else to go (don't agree w/ the teachings of the other churches in my vicinity either).
my last "study" w/ my bible study conductor (a month or so ago) was terrible.
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jaffacake
Lynn
Hello again. Because I wouldn't accept blindly, all that I was taught during my own studies last year, I was quickly dumped. But not before a remarkable admission, during a discussion about Romans 13:1 and the Watchtower flip flop, that the so called FDS got no information from God. And this was from the PO, but I had no witnesses, nor did I make a recording. He never gave me a second chance to do so.
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jaffacake
Well then - a warm welcome IOC
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9
Is Jesus over-rated?
by scout575 inwhilst the bible generally portrays jesus as a good and clever man, is this the whole story?
how does jesus respond to those who meet with his disapproval?
to peter he says: "get thee behind me, satan: thou art an offence unto me.
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jaffacake
Thanks Scout,
Some excellent questions.
I think your saying "We don't see things the way they are, we see them the way WE are." is close to what I had in mind, though unable to clearly express. With regard to the paradox of a punitive vindictive God versus a God of unlimited love, perhaps the whole point of this, and of the judgement teaching, is to show us something of the way WE are. This also reminds me of the two alternative faces of Islam.
But none of this has any relevance to non believers, and as I am not trying to convert you, nor anyone else, my posts are just trying to show there are alternative beliefs about what the bible and Christianity are.
If I were debating with a believer, I would go on to say that with the blinkers off, I believe there are clear pointers to what supersedes or sublates what in scriptures. I spent my early life being taught what to pre-suppose, wheras if the bible has any value at all, I believe it teaches us to go on a spiritual search of self discovery and deeper understanding of the revelation of God in Jesus.
On the question of 1 Sam 12:15 versus God is Love. If these are inconsistent, then I trust you will agree that the fact that one appears in the NT is very significant in itself. There are also Jesus words about 'the law and the prophets'. Moreover Hebrew scriptures had a very different emphasis and purpose. For example they were concerned with this life, not a life after death, until very late indeed.
I agree none of this is conclusive, but that is my point. I am suspicious of anyone who claims to have a true understanding of scriptures. I certainly don't make that claim and I think to make such a claim misses the whole point. To explain what I mean it would perhaps be necessary to discuss one specific topic in some detail. Perhaps this is not the time or place. Over a pint would be easier.hehe.
You may well be right about pre-suppositions, except that I always used to have JW style pre-suppositions because of programming. After 25 years without opening a bible or thinking of religion, I began studying just a little of how to begin unravelling what scriptures might really mean, if anything. The least I could do was try to tap into the most reliable methods that most recognised theologians and scholars would agree on, although there are inevitably areas of disagreement. I came to the task with an open mind, expecting if anything use the inconsistencies to disprove the validity of the bible to my old friend, who was converting to JWism.
On the shunning doctrine you mention, you seem still to take at face value the JW teaching of what those words mean. An alternative, rather than apply a different pre-supposition, is to apply different methodology. Instead of reading those 2000 year old words as JWs do and clumsily lifting them into a 21st century context, more can be learned from studying the context and background of that text, and by appreciating the practices at that time in that place. But that work has been done by better minds than mine - a favorite of mine being Raymond Franz.
You ask who decides? IMO it is indeed a matter of personal choice, that is if we are interested at all. But for those who wish to study scriptures, my advice would be to reject those 'teachers' who start from the point of view of having a preferred set of doctrines, reflecting pre-supposed ideas, and then fit scriptures into them, by using favourite texts, while ignoring others or distorting their meaning to fit.
For me the choice is simple. Either conclude sriptures have no meaning...as per the past 25 years of my life...or try to apply well established principles that reveal potential to resolve the paradoxes, errors, apparent inconsistencies etc, not only within the bible but with everything we know from science. I am surprised myself at how much I have been able to reconcile in my own heart and mind. If and when it all falls apart, then its back to agnosticism or atheism for me. At least I would be in better company and closer to 'truth' than if I joined some fundie 'Christian' religion.
Regards
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the term 'removed my privileges'...
by jaffacake in.
and what other measures can be taken against a jw who does something the elders dissapprove of, short of disfellowshipping?.
(this may sound like a dumb question but i was never a jw)
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jaffacake
Many thanks for all the replies. I thought it might be those types of things, but could not get my head round why they would use the term 'privileges'.
In my ignorance, it seems to me that the more privileges they remove the more the JW benefits. An incentive for poor conduct?
The more I learn about JWs the more 'worldly' an organisation I see - seemingly obsessed with human hierarcical structures and materialistic concerns rather than anything truly spiritual.
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jaffacake
Having re read this thread, perhaps IOC thought we were active JWs here and maybe he thought Auldsoul's reply was from a JW attacking him for being an 'apostate'.
Was his attack on Auldsoul based on a misunderstanding?
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9
Is Jesus over-rated?
by scout575 inwhilst the bible generally portrays jesus as a good and clever man, is this the whole story?
how does jesus respond to those who meet with his disapproval?
to peter he says: "get thee behind me, satan: thou art an offence unto me.
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jaffacake
ScoutThe questions you post remind me of the suppressed questions and doubts I grew up with. Some people actually did ask me similar questions back then. Maybe they had some impact at a subconscious level, but at the time I dismissed them.
Eventually, I faded from adventism, and over time I threw out the baby, the bathwater, and the bath.
Having been 'educated' about the Bible by my religious leaders, much of which of course conflicted with common sense and most of modern science, and then having moved on in my life, I could never return to my old ways. Once you see the old man working the levers behind the curtain, you can't go back to seeking the Wizard of Oz. Neither would it be possible for my new JW convert friends to tempt me down that similar path. Their memorial invites etc did however prompt me to research their religion, and my old religion, quite thoroughly, hence my membership of this board. I learned more than I bargained for.
There are many flavours of wizards of Oz, but none of these had anything to do with the really big questions that neither science nor religion have been able to answer yet - such as how did life on earth start?
But as for Christianity, now that's something completely different imo. Disagreements in this field can arise from people having very different definitions for the same terms, such as 'God' or 'inspired of God' or 'word of God' or 'truth' or 'Christianity' or 'creation' etc etc, or indeed through some of us not having very clear definitions at all. To me as an individual, there is little point in you trying to prove an object is either a rotten apple or not an apple at all, when I believe it to be a pear.
I think there is actually a growing market for your line of questioning, with the growth of fundamentalism in religion, including Christian fundamentalism, although I'm not sure how many fundamentalists visit this particular board.
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jaffacake
I get a typical no brain dumb fuck response from some bedwetter
Ouch! And what kind of response do you expect from others after that retort?
If the response you got was so typical I wonder why you bothered to ask the question.
So why do you now suppose that your very good question has not been addressed yet?
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What's your view of the bible?
by JH inok' the bible is full of errors and inconsistencies some will say, so does this make the bible nul and void?.
some verses are still very clear, like thy shall not steal, or thy shall not commit adultery or fornication... .
some will think that if you find a few errors or inconsistencies in the bible, then it's not trustworthy anymore, so scrap the whole book.
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jaffacake
Lego
Yes...read them and many more similar, and quite enjoyed (and used) some of the stuff therin, thanks.
But imo they all sorta miss the point unless directed at JWs and similar. Such arguments aimed at me and 'mainstream' people tend to come across as 'straw man' arguments.
What's the point in writing a million words to prove an object is not an 'apple' to people who believe it to be a 'pear'?
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the term 'removed my privileges'...
by jaffacake in.
and what other measures can be taken against a jw who does something the elders dissapprove of, short of disfellowshipping?.
(this may sound like a dumb question but i was never a jw)
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jaffacake
...what exactly does it mean?
and what other measures can be taken against a JW who does something the elders dissapprove of, short of disfellowshipping?
(this may sound like a dumb question but I was never a JW)