Posts by jaffacake

21

Is this prophecy by Jesus trustworthy?

by scout575 in

jw
friends

in the last chapter of the bible jesus is three times portrayed as saying: "i come quickly.

" the last of these three statements actually reads: "surely i come quickly.

" ( rev 22:7, 12, 20 ) does the passage of nearly 2000 years since those words were written indicate that this bible prophecy is trustworthy?

jaffacake

Scout

A good question to ask is: How would the Christians in the first century have understood Jesus' words? ..........The early Christians would have understood Jesus words to mean that soon ( in their lifetime ) Jesus would return and reward them with eternal life and destroy their oppressors...... This is the understanding that Paul had, as shown at 1Thess 4:17: "Then WE which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them and meet the Lord in the air.

But I'm afraid I don't think that's a good question to ask at all. Why on earth would the people of 2,000 years ago have a clearer understanding than the generations who would follow them? Jesus disciples repeatedly failed to understand & missed the point. They were only human, like JWs, catholics & others - not infallible.

Of course the first Christians were millennialist. Clearly Paul was millennialist when he wrote to the Thessalonians (believed to be his earliest letter). Like all millennialists he believed that Christ's return was imminent and there would be terror and destruction, with only a very small group of elect to be saved and taken directly to heaven.

But Paul changed his mind on these things. By probably his last letter, to the Romans, he wrote 'Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the final number of the gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved' (Rom 11:25-26). The imminence of Christ's return was already being reinterpreted within the canon of the NT.

The whole bible resounds with change and reinterpretation, including from OT to NT and within the NT itself. Jesus words "you have heard that it is written.....but I am telling you...", more change.

Of course I would not wish to be stuck with the same understandings of those to whom Jesus addressed his words, and I'm not sure why you suggest their understanding as being so importantl? They all had different pespectives anyway - no one truth but 4 gospels. The fact that they often failed to understand his messages is so clear, but that is admitted within the NT, and so what? I'm not aware of any teaching that suggests 'understanding' is a requirement of salvation - what an anti-Christian teaching that would be.

In Matthew's gospel, in the sermon on the mount, and its preface, the Torah is to be kept in every detail (613 commands) until the end of time. Jesus was a totally orthodox jew and a legalist. But the actual Torah did not remain in force until the end of time, but perhaps it symbolically illustrates the degree of force & commitment to God's law. But what is God's law? The actual 613 rules were abandoned presumably some time after the death of Jesus who had said "the entire law is summed up in a single command - love your neighbour as yourself' Gal 5:14. I believe the apostles that knew Jesus continued to keep the full Torah until they died, so is their way right?

I don't hang on every scriptural word as if it comes from God as if by magic. The bible is not magic, nor do I believe it to be the only inspired scriptures. In fact, outside the JW world, not that many 'believers' believe in magic, ready to be devastated by a so called prophecy that doesn't come true in the way some folks thought it would.

21

Is this prophecy by Jesus trustworthy?

by scout575 in

jw
friends

in the last chapter of the bible jesus is three times portrayed as saying: "i come quickly.

" the last of these three statements actually reads: "surely i come quickly.

" ( rev 22:7, 12, 20 ) does the passage of nearly 2000 years since those words were written indicate that this bible prophecy is trustworthy?

jaffacake

In my humble opinion, yes.

But I can see why the answer might be no for those who choose to have a one dimentional reading, and discount the commonly accepted view that all scriptures have several levels of meaning . Perhaps it is unwise to persist in reading the bible as if it were a 21st century novel, biography or timetable etc.

A Christian perspective:

In the historical sense of such texts, the destruction of the state of Israel and the origin of Christianity in which Christ rules as liberator and king, happens within one generation of Christ's words in the gospel - pretty quick!

In the post-historical sense, there is also reference to when the story of human life on earth has come to an end. Not so quick for temporal beings, but "to the Lord a day is like a thousand years" (2 Peter 3:9).

But what of the spiritual sense, which addresses the heart. In this sense, the parousia, the being present, of Christ is imminent at any moment of time. Many believe from the resurrection Jesus is enthroned on the clouds of heaven (symbolically speaking of course) even though the world carries on. He can appear at any moment - "be on guard! be alert!" The coming of Christ in this sense is the drawing near to God in the form of the risen Jesus. God's self disclosure for those who have eyes to see, who 'are awake'. In this sense it would be strange to think in terms of 'one moment in time' and look for a timetable of some kind.

.

4

Will the Watchtower form a football team

by jaffacake in

jw
friends

below is an article i found on an adventist website.

the watchtower stole most of the adventists other ideas...maybe next year?.

adventist football league begins a new year - trevor and andrene young.

jaffacake

Below is an article I found on an adventist website. The Watchtower stole most of the adventists other ideas...maybe next year?

ADVENTIST FOOTBALL LEAGUE BEGINS A NEW YEAR - Trevor and Andrene Young

Established in the year 2003, the Adventist Football League is now well into its fourth season and things are looking good. As one would expect from a new organisation, we had our baptism of fire, struggled with discipline and organisational efficiency, but through our collective efforts and the abiding grace of God, we have weathered the early storms and are now poised for great things.

As we start the new year, the League wishes to thank all its well-wishers and supporters for their prayers, hard work, dedication, participation and general support that enabled us to progress this far. We hope that with God's continued guidance and blessings, and your continued support, we will make greater strides towards achieving our stated aims. These are as follows:

· To enhance inter-church communication and interaction.

· To improve fellowship, establish and develop new friendships between church members.

· To equip the youth of the Church with sporting skills, while assisting with their social and spiritual development.

· To encourage and facilitate greater interaction between the Church and the community, effectively bridging the Church/community gap, and thereby developing a more balanced community.

· To develop more effective role models by setting good standards, both on and off the football field by adhering to true Christian morals and principles.

· To draw people closer to Christ by demonstrating genuine Christian values and morals in all our endeavours

34

Pagan Symbols

by I.O.C. in

jw
friends

.

why does the watchtower society use a pagan symbol as their logo?.

jaffacake

Who and where are the statues of Artemus? And how are they pagan symbols? (rubs hands thinking this could be another for my collection...)

27

I think I've finally had it! (long)

by lynnmelo in

jw
friends

some of you may know that i had regularly been studying with the jw's for about two years, but i was never baptized.

i stumbled on some information about the child molestation scandal a few months ago, and that started me on the road to questioning the organization (for further details on my situation, see my topic history).. anyway, up until now, i had decided to just fade into the background, still attending sunday kh meetings because i want to attend some church, and i just don't know where else to go (don't agree w/ the teachings of the other churches in my vicinity either).

my last "study" w/ my bible study conductor (a month or so ago) was terrible.

jaffacake

Lynn

Hello again. Because I wouldn't accept blindly, all that I was taught during my own studies last year, I was quickly dumped. But not before a remarkable admission, during a discussion about Romans 13:1 and the Watchtower flip flop, that the so called FDS got no information from God. And this was from the PO, but I had no witnesses, nor did I make a recording. He never gave me a second chance to do so.

34

Pagan Symbols

by I.O.C. in

jw
friends

.

why does the watchtower society use a pagan symbol as their logo?.

jaffacake

Well then - a warm welcome IOC

9

Is Jesus over-rated?

by scout575 in

jw
friends

whilst the bible generally portrays jesus as a good and clever man, is this the whole story?

how does jesus respond to those who meet with his disapproval?

to peter he says: "get thee behind me, satan: thou art an offence unto me.

jaffacake

Thanks Scout,

Some excellent questions.

I think your saying "We don't see things the way they are, we see them the way WE are." is close to what I had in mind, though unable to clearly express. With regard to the paradox of a punitive vindictive God versus a God of unlimited love, perhaps the whole point of this, and of the judgement teaching, is to show us something of the way WE are. This also reminds me of the two alternative faces of Islam.

But none of this has any relevance to non believers, and as I am not trying to convert you, nor anyone else, my posts are just trying to show there are alternative beliefs about what the bible and Christianity are.

If I were debating with a believer, I would go on to say that with the blinkers off, I believe there are clear pointers to what supersedes or sublates what in scriptures. I spent my early life being taught what to pre-suppose, wheras if the bible has any value at all, I believe it teaches us to go on a spiritual search of self discovery and deeper understanding of the revelation of God in Jesus.

On the question of 1 Sam 12:15 versus God is Love. If these are inconsistent, then I trust you will agree that the fact that one appears in the NT is very significant in itself. There are also Jesus words about 'the law and the prophets'. Moreover Hebrew scriptures had a very different emphasis and purpose. For example they were concerned with this life, not a life after death, until very late indeed.

I agree none of this is conclusive, but that is my point. I am suspicious of anyone who claims to have a true understanding of scriptures. I certainly don't make that claim and I think to make such a claim misses the whole point. To explain what I mean it would perhaps be necessary to discuss one specific topic in some detail. Perhaps this is not the time or place. Over a pint would be easier.hehe.

You may well be right about pre-suppositions, except that I always used to have JW style pre-suppositions because of programming. After 25 years without opening a bible or thinking of religion, I began studying just a little of how to begin unravelling what scriptures might really mean, if anything. The least I could do was try to tap into the most reliable methods that most recognised theologians and scholars would agree on, although there are inevitably areas of disagreement. I came to the task with an open mind, expecting if anything use the inconsistencies to disprove the validity of the bible to my old friend, who was converting to JWism.

On the shunning doctrine you mention, you seem still to take at face value the JW teaching of what those words mean. An alternative, rather than apply a different pre-supposition, is to apply different methodology. Instead of reading those 2000 year old words as JWs do and clumsily lifting them into a 21st century context, more can be learned from studying the context and background of that text, and by appreciating the practices at that time in that place. But that work has been done by better minds than mine - a favorite of mine being Raymond Franz.

You ask who decides? IMO it is indeed a matter of personal choice, that is if we are interested at all. But for those who wish to study scriptures, my advice would be to reject those 'teachers' who start from the point of view of having a preferred set of doctrines, reflecting pre-supposed ideas, and then fit scriptures into them, by using favourite texts, while ignoring others or distorting their meaning to fit.

For me the choice is simple. Either conclude sriptures have no meaning...as per the past 25 years of my life...or try to apply well established principles that reveal potential to resolve the paradoxes, errors, apparent inconsistencies etc, not only within the bible but with everything we know from science. I am surprised myself at how much I have been able to reconcile in my own heart and mind. If and when it all falls apart, then its back to agnosticism or atheism for me. At least I would be in better company and closer to 'truth' than if I joined some fundie 'Christian' religion.

Regards

17

the term 'removed my privileges'...

by jaffacake in

jw
friends

.

and what other measures can be taken against a jw who does something the elders dissapprove of, short of disfellowshipping?.

(this may sound like a dumb question but i was never a jw)

jaffacake

Many thanks for all the replies. I thought it might be those types of things, but could not get my head round why they would use the term 'privileges'.

In my ignorance, it seems to me that the more privileges they remove the more the JW benefits. An incentive for poor conduct?

The more I learn about JWs the more 'worldly' an organisation I see - seemingly obsessed with human hierarcical structures and materialistic concerns rather than anything truly spiritual.

34

Pagan Symbols

by I.O.C. in

jw
friends

.

why does the watchtower society use a pagan symbol as their logo?.

jaffacake

Having re read this thread, perhaps IOC thought we were active JWs here and maybe he thought Auldsoul's reply was from a JW attacking him for being an 'apostate'.

Was his attack on Auldsoul based on a misunderstanding?

9

Is Jesus over-rated?

by scout575 in

jw
friends

whilst the bible generally portrays jesus as a good and clever man, is this the whole story?

how does jesus respond to those who meet with his disapproval?

to peter he says: "get thee behind me, satan: thou art an offence unto me.

jaffacake

Scout

The questions you post remind me of the suppressed questions and doubts I grew up with. Some people actually did ask me similar questions back then. Maybe they had some impact at a subconscious level, but at the time I dismissed them.

Eventually, I faded from adventism, and over time I threw out the baby, the bathwater, and the bath.

Having been 'educated' about the Bible by my religious leaders, much of which of course conflicted with common sense and most of modern science, and then having moved on in my life, I could never return to my old ways. Once you see the old man working the levers behind the curtain, you can't go back to seeking the Wizard of Oz. Neither would it be possible for my new JW convert friends to tempt me down that similar path. Their memorial invites etc did however prompt me to research their religion, and my old religion, quite thoroughly, hence my membership of this board. I learned more than I bargained for.

There are many flavours of wizards of Oz, but none of these had anything to do with the really big questions that neither science nor religion have been able to answer yet - such as how did life on earth start?

But as for Christianity, now that's something completely different imo. Disagreements in this field can arise from people having very different definitions for the same terms, such as 'God' or 'inspired of God' or 'word of God' or 'truth' or 'Christianity' or 'creation' etc etc, or indeed through some of us not having very clear definitions at all. To me as an individual, there is little point in you trying to prove an object is either a rotten apple or not an apple at all, when I believe it to be a pear.

I think there is actually a growing market for your line of questioning, with the growth of fundamentalism in religion, including Christian fundamentalism, although I'm not sure how many fundamentalists visit this particular board.