Narkissos Thanks for comments...I accept your point, up to a point. Scout, To me there is clear evidence that Paul's millennialistic beliefs were indeed changing, and not just about the timing, but about who would be saved etc. I hope you can recognise that. It is the degree of literalism, for example in respect of the timetable, that I suggest was changing. You actually help to make my argument by quoting Romans 16:20? "The God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet SHORTLY." I would argue that reinterpretation had begun that led to a more spiritual understanding, and for example to the imminent making present of Christ in bread and wine, a sacramental interpretation. A change of mind, albeit gradual. But wrong predictions?...I just don't see how you still see predictions. Why does it tend to be only modern dogmatic religious leaders who would agree with your view of the nature of the bible? I don't really think it is a question of right or wrong in respect of specific texts, more about greater enlightenment or deeper understanding of the whole. I am not qualified to answer your questions about which scriptures to accept as truth and which error. With respect we seem poles apart in how we see the bible and God. You seem to suggest God could or should intervene to prevent tragedies in history. To me that is absurd, as a result of a very strange view of scriptures. Its just a book - no magic! I hope you don't think I consider I am right about all this. I have no better claim to truth and understanding than you or anyone else on this board. You may well be right in your (presumably atheist) beliefs than I might be wrong in mine. Strangely I suppose our positions on God were probably reversed several years ago. But I am sure we are both closer to the truth than JWs or fundamentalist Christians. I truly feel closer to atheism than to a reading of the bible you seem to suggest - as if it contained predictions, timetables and the like. My sole purpose for posting is to show a more sensible interpretation of the bible than the version you find it so easy to set up to knock down. I would post just the same if I were an athiest. If you really want answers about how to make reasonable judgements about what the bible really teaches, I would refer you to the works of any decent good bible scholars, masters in Hebrew & Greek who have read the ancient texts in their original languages, and who have published research work in peer-review journals, and who know what other good bible scholars have said and which bible commentaries give a fair range of plausible interpretations. They might not all agree, but I believe your questions would make many of them smile.
jaffacake
JoinedPosts by jaffacake
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Is this prophecy by Jesus trustworthy?
by scout575 inin the last chapter of the bible jesus is three times portrayed as saying: "i come quickly.
" the last of these three statements actually reads: "surely i come quickly.
" ( rev 22:7, 12, 20 ) does the passage of nearly 2000 years since those words were written indicate that this bible prophecy is trustworthy?
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Horizon - A War On Science
by City Fan in.
for anyone who's interested, bbc documentary series horizon is showing a program called 'a war on science' this thursday 26 jan 9pm on bbc2.
should be interesting!.
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jaffacake
I watched this tonight - quite interesting.
The evolutionists (and the courts) showed the intelligent design supporters for what they are - completely unscientific.
I liked the quote that about evolution explains about 99% of what we know about life on earth, whereas intelligent design theory explains precisely zero.
Hey don't get me wrong, I'm a believer and have no problem speculating on the possibility of a creator, but not at the expense of good science. I'm not 100% sure that evolution is quite the whole answer as many believe. But it upsets me when folks try to pass I.D. off as scientific.
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The facts: The Bible is a code book sent by aliens
by Franz in"is satan another alien civilization ?
snake-like parasite, which lives in human host ?
is satan originally from the planet called hell ?
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jaffacake
Franz. How can I take you seriously when you start your thread title with the words :"The Facts". That makes you sound exactly like a dogmatic JW elder.
facts? Prove it!
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Jehovah's Witnesses claim that God must always be referred to as Jehovah
by Rook infirst, the word jehovah came about because the ancient jews had a superstitious dread of pronouncing the name yhwh for fear they would violate the commandment not to take god's name in vain.
to avoid the possibility of breaking this commandment, the jews substituted the name "adonai" (lord) or some other name in its place when ever they read it in scripture.
eventually the scribes inserted the vowels from adonai within the consonants yhwh and the result was yahowah, or jehovah.
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jaffacake
What a great article by z. I made a very comprehensive study of this myself last year, with the help of some great material from the web, JW bibles etc.
Personally I accept the validity of the bible, and accept (as does the watchtower) that it has been faithfully and accurately preserved, despite the original manuscripts not being available.
Some portions (copies) of the NT date to just a few decades after the originals were written. Because I accept the most ancient Greek Christian manuscripts as being the best record possible of what the original authors actually wrote, I am convinced that it is wrong and unacceptable for a Christian to use the term Jehovah when reading the New Testament. Even the Tetragrammaton has no place in Greek Christian Scriptures. And this can be proved using only WTS publications, namely the NWT reference edition together with the Greek Interlinear translation. For me, this is as big a scandal as 'blood' or 'UN'
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The end is not close..................so prove it !
by vitty inim fading, and some of my family now realize we arent going to meetings.
everytime they phone or speak to me me, they keep reminding ( threatning) that the end is so close, dont give up now.. i just dont know how to respond, i know so much, but dont want to go into the un stuff yet ( dont want to sound apostate just yet) how can i say i dont believe the end is close !
that armageddon isnt iminent, what scripture can i use to back it up.
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jaffacake
Vitty
1. Which other religion has such a hopeless track record at interpreting scripture and making wrong popphecies and predictions? They have been wrong about several hundreds of things which can now be proved and even they accept they were wrong. Their failure rate for all predictions has been precisely 100%.
2. Suggested reading - The sign of the last days by Carl Olof Johnsson. It refers to Watchtowers of the 1960s and 1970s admitting that Jesus' disciples did not believe Christ's presence would be invisible. JWs only fell back on that adventist theory because of yet more failed predictions.
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WHAT WILL HAPPENED ABOUT DNA AFTER ARMAGEDDON?
by badboy indna may well have originated with viruses.. assuming that adam and eve had no dna because having something from a virus must be a sign of the fall, what will happened after armageddon.. .
will people be striped of dna in the new system?.
what would go in its place?.
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jaffacake
What's Armageddon?
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JWs are very much unlike early christians!
by greendawn indo you think the jws are really modelled on the early church as they like to claim?
i don't think they come close to it in terms of doctrine, authority structure, or mindset.
eg they know nothing about charity towards their own or fellow humans in general, they have a very centralised power structure, they kick against any advice given to the fds, they never celebrate the eucharist, they are jehovah rather than christ centred.
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jaffacake
I believe the rank & file JWs really do believe they are closer than other religions to how the early christians worshipped. The most basic research would reveal how mistaken they are in that view, but their only research material is watchtower publications...so some will never know any better - so sad.
Never mind early Christians, even the JWs were still worshipping Jesus Christ in 1945. They all used to partake of the bread and wine until the 1930s, you know - like the early Christians did.
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Is this prophecy by Jesus trustworthy?
by scout575 inin the last chapter of the bible jesus is three times portrayed as saying: "i come quickly.
" the last of these three statements actually reads: "surely i come quickly.
" ( rev 22:7, 12, 20 ) does the passage of nearly 2000 years since those words were written indicate that this bible prophecy is trustworthy?
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jaffacake
Scout
A good question to ask is: How would the Christians in the first century have understood Jesus' words? ..........The early Christians would have understood Jesus words to mean that soon ( in their lifetime ) Jesus would return and reward them with eternal life and destroy their oppressors...... This is the understanding that Paul had, as shown at 1Thess 4:17: "Then WE which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them and meet the Lord in the air.
But I'm afraid I don't think that's a good question to ask at all. Why on earth would the people of 2,000 years ago have a clearer understanding than the generations who would follow them? Jesus disciples repeatedly failed to understand & missed the point. They were only human, like JWs, catholics & others - not infallible.
Of course the first Christians were millennialist. Clearly Paul was millennialist when he wrote to the Thessalonians (believed to be his earliest letter). Like all millennialists he believed that Christ's return was imminent and there would be terror and destruction, with only a very small group of elect to be saved and taken directly to heaven.
But Paul changed his mind on these things. By probably his last letter, to the Romans, he wrote 'Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the final number of the gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved' (Rom 11:25-26). The imminence of Christ's return was already being reinterpreted within the canon of the NT.
The whole bible resounds with change and reinterpretation, including from OT to NT and within the NT itself. Jesus words "you have heard that it is written.....but I am telling you...", more change.
Of course I would not wish to be stuck with the same understandings of those to whom Jesus addressed his words, and I'm not sure why you suggest their understanding as being so importantl? They all had different pespectives anyway - no one truth but 4 gospels. The fact that they often failed to understand his messages is so clear, but that is admitted within the NT, and so what? I'm not aware of any teaching that suggests 'understanding' is a requirement of salvation - what an anti-Christian teaching that would be.
In Matthew's gospel, in the sermon on the mount, and its preface, the Torah is to be kept in every detail (613 commands) until the end of time. Jesus was a totally orthodox jew and a legalist. But the actual Torah did not remain in force until the end of time, but perhaps it symbolically illustrates the degree of force & commitment to God's law. But what is God's law? The actual 613 rules were abandoned presumably some time after the death of Jesus who had said "the entire law is summed up in a single command - love your neighbour as yourself' Gal 5:14. I believe the apostles that knew Jesus continued to keep the full Torah until they died, so is their way right?
I don't hang on every scriptural word as if it comes from God as if by magic. The bible is not magic, nor do I believe it to be the only inspired scriptures. In fact, outside the JW world, not that many 'believers' believe in magic, ready to be devastated by a so called prophecy that doesn't come true in the way some folks thought it would.
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Is this prophecy by Jesus trustworthy?
by scout575 inin the last chapter of the bible jesus is three times portrayed as saying: "i come quickly.
" the last of these three statements actually reads: "surely i come quickly.
" ( rev 22:7, 12, 20 ) does the passage of nearly 2000 years since those words were written indicate that this bible prophecy is trustworthy?
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jaffacake
In my humble opinion, yes.
But I can see why the answer might be no for those who choose to have a one dimentional reading, and discount the commonly accepted view that all scriptures have several levels of meaning . Perhaps it is unwise to persist in reading the bible as if it were a 21st century novel, biography or timetable etc.
A Christian perspective:
In the historical sense of such texts, the destruction of the state of Israel and the origin of Christianity in which Christ rules as liberator and king, happens within one generation of Christ's words in the gospel - pretty quick!
In the post-historical sense, there is also reference to when the story of human life on earth has come to an end. Not so quick for temporal beings, but "to the Lord a day is like a thousand years" (2 Peter 3:9).
But what of the spiritual sense, which addresses the heart. In this sense, the parousia, the being present, of Christ is imminent at any moment of time. Many believe from the resurrection Jesus is enthroned on the clouds of heaven (symbolically speaking of course) even though the world carries on. He can appear at any moment - "be on guard! be alert!" The coming of Christ in this sense is the drawing near to God in the form of the risen Jesus. God's self disclosure for those who have eyes to see, who 'are awake'. In this sense it would be strange to think in terms of 'one moment in time' and look for a timetable of some kind.
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Will the Watchtower form a football team
by jaffacake inbelow is an article i found on an adventist website.
the watchtower stole most of the adventists other ideas...maybe next year?.
adventist football league begins a new year - trevor and andrene young.
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jaffacake
Below is an article I found on an adventist website. The Watchtower stole most of the adventists other ideas...maybe next year?
ADVENTIST FOOTBALL LEAGUE BEGINS A NEW YEAR - Trevor and Andrene Young
Established in the year 2003, the Adventist Football League is now well into its fourth season and things are looking good. As one would expect from a new organisation, we had our baptism of fire, struggled with discipline and organisational efficiency, but through our collective efforts and the abiding grace of God, we have weathered the early storms and are now poised for great things.
As we start the new year, the League wishes to thank all its well-wishers and supporters for their prayers, hard work, dedication, participation and general support that enabled us to progress this far. We hope that with God's continued guidance and blessings, and your continued support, we will make greater strides towards achieving our stated aims. These are as follows:
· To enhance inter-church communication and interaction.
· To improve fellowship, establish and develop new friendships between church members.
· To equip the youth of the Church with sporting skills, while assisting with their social and spiritual development.
· To encourage and facilitate greater interaction between the Church and the community, effectively bridging the Church/community gap, and thereby developing a more balanced community.
· To develop more effective role models by setting good standards, both on and off the football field by adhering to true Christian morals and principles.
· To draw people closer to Christ by demonstrating genuine Christian values and morals in all our endeavours