Thank you KLS...that's very sweet. As you know I really don't care what the bible says...but to some it's important. Hence my post. How's the car coming?
EvilForce
JoinedPosts by EvilForce
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54
Homosexuality What the Bible Really Says...
by EvilForce into all my very patient friends out there thank for your support here.
over many threads i have argued and posted on what various indivdual versus in the bible say.
to put it all together i decided to create it's own topic thread so it could be referred back to in the future.
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54
Homosexuality What the Bible Really Says...
by EvilForce into all my very patient friends out there thank for your support here.
over many threads i have argued and posted on what various indivdual versus in the bible say.
to put it all together i decided to create it's own topic thread so it could be referred back to in the future.
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EvilForce
To all my very patient friends out there thank for your support here. Over many threads I have argued and posted on what various indivdual versus in the bible say. To put it all together I decided to create it's own topic thread so it could be referred back to in the future. For those of you who are interested here you go...for those of you who couldn't care less....nothing to see here keep moving. LOL (I'm not trying to create a flame war or right vs. wrong with this thread...simply if you are interested in another viewpoint regarding this great. If you don't want to consider it and feel it's simply wrong...fine...you are entitled to your opinion.)
Genesis 19: 1-28 - New World Translation
The ancient story of Sodom and Gomorrah has been used throughout the centuries as a condemnation of homosexuality, to the point where certain sex acts have become referred to as "Sodomy". The verses in this story most commonly referred to as proof that the Sodomites were homosexual are verses 4 and 5: "Before they could lie down, the men of the city, the men of Sodom, surrounded the house, from boy to old man, all the people in one mob. And they kept calling out to Lot and saying to him: 'Where are the men who came in to you tonight? Bring them out to us that we may have intercourse with them." Examining this scripture, the first thing we see is that all the people, in one mob, demanded that Lot bring out the visitors to them. If we are to believe that the account of Sodom & Gomorrah is a condemnation of homosexuality, then we must accept the fact that the entire city consisted of homosexuals. If we look in the previous chapter, Genesis 18: 16-33, we see an account of Abraham negotiating with God to spare the people of Sodom, with the final outcome of God promising "I shall not bring it to ruin on account of the ten" (verse 33). God promised Abraham that Sodom would not be destroyed if only ten "righteous men" could be found I the city. If we are to accept the Watchtower's logic, this would mean that the "righteous men" referred to were heterosexuals. At this point, we need to ask ourselves: What would be the odds of less than ten people in the entire region of Sodom & Gomorrah being heterosexual? The obvious answer is: Impossible.
If homosexuality was not being referred to in this passage, then what was? Looking at the scriptures in Hebrew, we find an interesting usage of a couple of different words. When the mob cries out "Where are the men who came in to you tonight?", the Hebrew word translated men is 'enowsh which, literally translated, means "mortal".
This indicates that the mob knew that Lot had visitors, but were unsure of what sex they were. The Hebrew word for "man" (utilized in this same passage in Genesis 19:8) is entirely different. One has to ask: Why would homosexuals want to have sex with two strangers if they were unsure of what sex they were?
The passage translated as "Bring them out so that we may have intercourse with them" needs further examination as well. Other Bible translations read "so that we may know them". The Hebrew word herewith translated as "have intercourse", or "know" is yada.
This word, yada, appears in the Hebrew Scriptures a total of 943 times. In all but ten of these usages, the word is used in the context of getting acquainted with someone. Had the writer intended for his reading audience to believe that the mob wanted to have sexual intercourse with the strangers, he would have used the Hebrew word shakab, which vividly denotes sexual activity. The correct translation, therefore, should be rendered something to the effect of: "Where are the mortals who came in to you tonight? Bring them out to us that we may get acquainted with them."
So then, if the story of Sodom & Gomorrah was not a condemnation of homosexuality, what was it trying to convey? Two verses elsewhere in the Bible sum up the story this way: "Look! This is what proved to be the error of Sodom your sister: Pride, sufficiency of bread and the carefreeness of keeping undisturbed were what happened to belong to her and her dependent towns, and the hand of the afflicted one and the poor one she did not strengthen. And they continued to be haughty and to carry on a detestable thing before me, and I finally removed them, just as I saw [fit]" - Ezekiel 16: 49, 50. It is commonly assumed that the "detestable thing" referred to in this passage is homosexuality. In fact, the Hebrew word utilized here is tow'ebah, which translated literally means "to commit idol worship".
This can be seen in the original Genesis passage, chapter 19, verse 8: "Please, here I have two daughters who have never had intercourse with a man. Please let me bring them out to you. Then do to them as is good in your eyes." One must ask: If Lot's house was surrounded by homosexuals, why would he offer the mob women? Note that these women were virgins. Note also that the Sodomites were pagans. Virgin sacrifices to idols were a common practice Sodom. Therefore, it can be concluded that Lot was offering his daughters as a virgin sacrifice to appease the mob in an effort to protect the visitors.
In the Greek scriptures, the story of Sodom is summed up this way: "and by reducing the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to ashes he condemned them, setting a pattern for ungodly persons of things to come". This corroborates Ezekiel's summation, once again showing that these were "ungodly persons", in other words, idolaters, not worshippers of the true God.
The story of Sodom and Gomorrah, therefore, is a condemnation of idol worshippers, a greedy and inhospitable society. The judgement of this region had nothing, absolutely nothing to do with homosexuality!
Leviticus 18:22
Leviticus 20:13
The message was clear to the ancient Israelites: semen was to be used for one purpose alone - procreation. Spilled semen, whether by masturbation, anal penetration, or homosexuality, was not to be tolerated. It was a "numbers game". One of the Bible's earliest edicts, it's theme repeated through the Old Testament, was to "be fruitful and multiply". Many strict regulations were imposed on the ancient Israelites. The "chosen ones of God" understood each of these regulations to be equally important. In the Greek scriptures, James points this fact out by stating: "For whoever observes all the law but makes a false step in one point, he has become an offender against them all." Watchtower publications, however, selectively cite the two scriptures in Leviticus as a condemnation of homosexuality, overlooking James' words which state, in essence, that if you've broken just one of the laws, you've broken them all. Leviticus 19:27 condemns haircuts and shaving. Have you ever seen a long-haired, bearded Jehovah's Witness male? Leviticus 19:19 condemns wearing clothing made of more than one type of thread. How many Jehovah's Witnesses wear clothing made of 50% cotton and 50% polyester? Taking the Bible literally, such individuals are equally guilty as homosexuals. When questioned by the pharisees regarding the ancient laws, Jesus' reply was "I came, not to destroy, but to fulfill". In other words, Christianity and love of God and fellow man was a replacement for the ancient codes, many of which were no longer practical or relevant.
But do these two passages really condemn homosexuality? Looking at the scriptures in Hebrew, one sees a different condemnation. Leviticus 20:13 states, in part, "When a man lies down with a male the same as one lies down with a woman". Had the writer intended to convey homosexuality being condemned here, he would have likely used the Hebrew word 'iysh, which means "man", or "male person". Instead, the author utilizes a much more complicated Hebrew word, zakar, which literally translated means "a person worthy of recognition".
This word was used to refer to high priests of the surrounding idolatrous religions. It was believed that by granting sexual favors to the high priest (a fertility rite), one would be guaranteed an abundance of children and crops. Taking Leviticus 18: 22 into proper context, then, one looks at the preceding verse 21: "And you must not allow the devoting of any of your offspring to Molech". What we see here in actuality are warnings to the Israelites not to engage in the fertility rituals of the worshippers of Molech, which often required the granting of sexual favors to the priest. Had this been a mere condemnation of homosexuals, the writer would have used clearer language.
Romans 1:26-27
1 Cor. 6: 9-11
1 Tim. 1:9-11
Greek, like Hebrew, is a much more descriptive language than English. As an example, while we have the word "love", Greek has agape, storge, philia, and eros - each describing a different form of love. Further, meanings of words can change over generations. A typical example would be if someone were referred to as a "space cadet" thirty years ago, likely they were employed by NASA. Today, the same phrase would be an insult. Thus, it is easy to understand why words in the ancient Greek could be misinterpreted, as are the terms "men who lie with men", "abusers of mankind", "homosexual", and "pervert" in the above referenced scriptures. The two words in Greek used in the above scriptures that are commonly mistranslated as such are arsenokoites and malakos. Bible scholars now believe arsenokoites to mean "male temple prostitute", as mentioned in the Hebrew scriptures at Deut. 23: 17-18. The actual meaning of this word, however, has been lost in history, as it was a slang term which, literally translated, means "lift bed". The Greek malakos, literally translated, means "spineless" (some linguistics scholars translate it as "limp", or "coward"). What is important to note here is that both of these words are nouns. In ancient Greek, there is no known noun to define homosexuality. It was always expressed as a verb. Just as in the Hebrew scriptures examined above, the Greek scriptures make reference to those who engaged in idolatrous practices, much of which centered around sex in return for favors. Neither the homosexual nor the direct idea of homosexuality appears anywhere in these passages. Had the writer intended to make a clear point about condemnation of gays, the Greek verb would have been utilized rather than the above-referenced nouns which are directly related to cowardice and idolatry.
But what of Paul's statement at Romans 1 where "females changed the natural use of themselves into one contrary to nature and likewise even the males left the natural use of the female and became violently inflamed in their lust towards one another"? The answer lies in Paul's words in verses 22 & 23: "Although asserting they were wise, they became foolish and turned the glory of the incorruptible God into something like the image of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed creatures and creeping things." Obviously, Paul's reference here is to idolatry. As mentioned above in examining the Hebrew scriptures, many pagan idol-worshipping religions of Paul's day taught that by granting sexual favors to the high priest, the one giving the favor would be rewarded with fertility of crops and offspring. It then becomes clear that Paul's reference was not to same-sex, loving relationships, but his condemnations focused on heterosexuals who, going against their own sexual nature, granted sexual favors to the leaders of pagan religions in expectation of reward by the pagan gods.
Nowhere in the Bible is any negative reference made to loving same-sex relationships. In fact, two positive references appear in the Hebrew scriptures of love between two people of the same sex:
2 Samuel 1:26 states: "I am distressed over you, my brother Jonathan, very pleasant you were to me. More wonderful was your love to me than the love from women."
Ruth 1: 16, 17 states: "And Ruth proceeded to say: 'Do not plead with me to abandon you, to turn back from accompanying you; for where you go I shall go, and where you spend the night I shall spend the night. Your people will be my people, and your God my God. Where you die I shall die, and there is where I shall be buried. May Jehovah do so to me and add to it if anything but death should make a separation between me and you'."
While no mention is made of actual sexual activity between these two same-sex couples, it must be pointed out that these couples had made covenants with each other. To the ancient Israelites, a covenant was viewed as a holy bond, a powerful uniting of two people. (Thanks to: A Common Bond)
Books on this subject:
Christianity, Social Tolerance, and Homosexuality - by John Boswell
Good News for Modern Gays - by Rev. Sylvia Pennington
Sex Positive - by Larry J. Uhrig
Homosexuality and Religion - edited by Richard Hasbany PhD
Living in Sin? - by Bishop John Shelby Spong
What the Bible Really Says About Homosexuality - by Daniel Helminiak
Openly Gay Openly Christian - by Rev. Samuel Kader
Steps To Recovery From Bible Abuse - by Rembert Truluck
Jonathan Loved David: Homosexuality in Biblical Times - by Thomas Marland Horner
The New Testament and Homosexuality - by Robin Scroggs -
16
Lifestyle critics
by Chia ini'm unable to get online as much as i used to, but i try and get on sometimes during the day.. last week i posted regarding a situation with my mom.
this time i'm having issues with my brother.
i've posted about him before.
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EvilForce
He digs because you don't defend yourself. LAY INTO HIM. You are not his doormat. You are not subservient to him. You are an adult...an equal...a sibling.
Funny how shitebags like your brother want to marry a virgin yet run around screwing everything that moves beforehand...then tossing them aside. Sick!
You've bit your tongue too long girl. If you don't stand up for yourself NO ONE will. I used to bite my tongues when I was on airplane or in public, or even around family when they would make homosexual digs. Guess what? Not any more. I've made more than a few of these people look silly for the bigots they are. -
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Check out this Mormon Video! Halarious!
by inquirer inclick on the projector to watch this most hilarious video!
(right beside the joseph smith picture) .
you probably already seen this video (!!!!!!!!!!
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EvilForce
Q...as I've mentioned I've known some first hand shunning instances...hence why I said it. There seems to be many cases of it. I also pulled up an encyclopedia and looked it up.
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (Mormons)
Mormons have a lay ministry. Most people in the congregation are called up to serve in some capacity. This includes the Bishop, the main ecclesiastical authority. Face to face "interviews" with the Bishop include frank discussions about the law of chastity, being honest in your dealings with your fellow man, support of the church authorities, non association with splinter groups or anti Mormon organizations. Violations can result in punishments ranging from not taking the sacrament (communion) to a Bishop's Court where the individual usually meets with the Bishop and his first and second councilors. These men determine if the individual should be punished or not with revocation of Temple Recommends and disfellowship. If the offense is serious enough (usually violations involving sex, violence of some form of criminal offense) the court will be administer by the High Council and led by the Stake President.
The social ramifications of these punishments are intense, especially in smaller, Mormon dominated communities. Once someone is viewed as "having lost the Spirit", they are avoided except for occasional "fellowshipping" to encourage the individual to "get their life in order and return to the fold." However, if the individual begins to question the authority of the church, or the theology, "active" Mormons will avoid them, and view them as being led about by the devil. -
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Sciavo autopsy
by rebel8 init can't possibly be that no one posted this news on the forum yet, can it?
i can't find a thread.
here's the story.
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EvilForce
I bet the lawyer bills on this matter have exceeded $ 350,000 or more on this case.
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JWD Family...
by RichieRich inin another thread, honesty said:you did get switched at birth and we finally found you.
almost all of your real family (us) were switched at birth also so it was one helluva deal to get you back with us.
but we are happy we found you.
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EvilForce
Sorry U/D I missed you. But you are the crazy Uncle in the other room swearing at the TV for the Denver Broncos getting smoked by the Dallas Cowboys. Blaming everyone from John Elway, to the WTBS, and Elder Smith from the hall for leading the conspiracy for your Broncos to lose. This conspiracy to just make your life just a little bit more insulting.
U/D of the needs to come on the back porch and smoke a fattie with the rest of us class. -
75
First Post
by 5thGeneration insome things confuse me here.
i am in the same position as many where i don't agree with so much the society says and feel stuck dragging myself to the meetings and then feel incredible guilt because the study for the day says it is wrong to have any doubts "even in private".
impossible for me!.
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EvilForce
****Yet, what if it became publicly known that a Christian blithely disregarded God’s evaluations? Would not others doubt whether he (or, she) was a good example, having a reputation of making decisions in harmony with the Bible? Such a disturbing blemish on one’s reputation could, of course, affect a minister’s being qualified for special privileges of service, though that might not be so if one had in ignorance had this procedure performed.—1 Timothy 3:7.
WHAT KIND OF HORSESHITE IS THIS!!!! So "blithely disrgarded" means one who thought the matter thru and determined it was ok with his Christian conscience? Assholes.....why don't they just come out and say "WE DON"T ALLOW IT" and be done with it. As usual they use subterfuge and stealth to excercise their power. UGH! I'm pissed off now! -
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Check out this Mormon Video! Halarious!
by inquirer inclick on the projector to watch this most hilarious video!
(right beside the joseph smith picture) .
you probably already seen this video (!!!!!!!!!!
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EvilForce
Q... I respectfully disagree with you about broken families. The mormon church DOES have shunning and is used as a weapon just as the Dub's do. Maybe it's not in their "official" policy but will seek confirmation later today. Which sect of Mormonism do you belong to? Remember my good friend runs an Ex-Mormon website...very similar to this one, and has written 2 books on the history of Mormonism. So I've seen my share of painful, heart wrenching stories.
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Please help teach my Jewish friends
by Booker ini am interested in jehovah witness theology, and i at this time write to a jewish news group.
many of my jewish friends are starting to belive in the new testement.
i was hoping that someone could reply to my public post below, so that me and my jewish friends can understand why we should become jehovah witnesses.
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EvilForce
I like the excorcism part best:
The exorcist may use blessed holy water to represent cleansing.
The exorcist may burn incense and say, "these are the prayers of the saints."
The exorcist may use vestments; moreover, the exorcist needs to explain the symbolism of the vestments to the possessed.
The exorcist may read passages from the bible.
Nothin like the smell of demunz in the morning to get EvilForce riled up! -
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Daniel's Prophecy, 605 BCE or 624 BCE?
by Little Bo Peep inhello all, i've been reading your site for a couple of years now, and have found, for the most part, it to be very helpful.
i must say, at first i was very "scared" at what i might find, but contrary to what i grew up learning, there is a "wealth" of information outside of the watchtower organization.
i haven't attended meetings for about two years now, and like many i've read about, have spent many hours researching, telling myself "i'm not wrong for searching", and doing more research.
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EvilForce
UGH Franz?!? Come on! I can post lists and lists of what he "got wrong". Can anyone say 1975? Yes that was Franz Scholar don't try and duck it.