Posts by Fatfreek

25

Jehovah's Witnesses and the "Great Disappointment" on UK Television

by slimboyfat in

jw
friends

it's a shame those of you outside the uk probably can't view the following link:.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00qm86v/qi_xl_series_7_greats/.

jehovah's witness get a prominent mention at the start of a popular comedy quiz show here in the uk, hosted by stephen fry, called qi.

Fatfreek

Villabolo: I recall the 1975 (?)* yearbook of Jehovah's Witnesses mentioning how Russell stepped into one of the Adventist meetings and recharged his wavering faith. If that could be verified it could easiliy be used against them since it is a recent book that should be available in Kingdom Hall libraries.

was it here? *** yb75 pp. 34-35 Part 1—United States of America ***

By his own later admission, he had been “shaken in faith regarding many long-accepted doctrines” and had fallen “a ready prey to the logic of infidelity.” But tonight he is attracted by some singing. He enters a dusty, dingy hall. His object? In his own words, “to see if the handful who met there had anything more sensible to offer than the creeds of the great churches.”

The young man sat and listened. Jonas Wendell, a Second Adventist, delivered the sermon. “His Scripture exposition was not entirely clear,” our listener later remarked. But it did something. He had to admit: “It was sufficient, under God, to reestablish my wavering faith in the Divine inspiration of the Bible, and to show that the records of the Apostles and the Prophets are indissolubly linked. What I heard sent me to my Bible to study with more zeal and care than ever before.”
The inquisitive young man was Charles Taze Russell.

I know that early Watchtowers (called Zion's Watch Tower and Herald of Christ's Presence) frequently referred to Miller in very favorable light even to the point of fulfilling prophecy . Miller, according to ZTW, only missed the arrival of Christ by 30 years -- 1874, not 1844. Additionally, the following will cause many a JW jaw to hang wide open with disbelief -- early Watchtowers referred to William Miller as " Father Miller". That's the degree of reverence it had for this recognized founder of the adventist movement.

Len Miller (no relation to William Miller)

16

JW Science Quote (1-29)

by TD in

jw
friends

if you've been exposed to american entertainment at all during the last forty years, it would be difficult to be unfamiliar with the sci-fi character, "mr.

spock.

" spock was a character in the series, star trek, the son of a "vulcan" father and a human mother.

Fatfreek

Farkel, that's a clever interview. Those of us who witnessed that incredible dramatization of the beating heart would have a hard time these days to convince modern JW's what really happened on stage.

LeeC: By 1977, The Watchtower was already starting to back away from it (cf. The Watchtower November 1, 1977 p. 659) and by 1986 it had been thoroughly repudiated. (cf. The Watchtower June 1, 1986 p. 15)

I must've missed something in your 1977 reference as I perceive their understanding then to be the same as that earlier 1971 teaching. However, by your ref 1986 Watchtower, they truly had done their teaching reversal.

*** w86 6/1 p. 15 par. 2 Determined to Serve Jehovah With a Complete Heart *** Fatfreek editorial license, 2010
The ancient Egyptians believed that the physical heart was the seat of intelligence and the emotions. They also thought that it had a will of its own. The Babylonians said that the heart housed the intellect as well as love. The Greek philosopher Aristotle taught that it was the seat of the senses and the domain of the soul. Indeed, certain older Watchtower Society publications viewed the physical heart "as the seat of motivation". But as time passed and knowledge increased, these views were discarded. Finally the heart became known for what it is, a pump to circulate the blood throughout the body.

Sorry, I couldn't resist that bit of editorial license. It struck me as amusing that in this teaching retraction they never made it clear that it was they, The Watchtower Society, who taught such BS in earlier pages of their publications. Nooooo! It was someone else (isn't it always the other guy?) the ancient Egyptians, The Babylonians, and The Greek philosopher Aristotle who were to blame.

Len

46

DNA memory

by poopsiecakes in

jw
friends

has anyone here ever researched or thought about dna memory?

there's a lot of weird, esoteric stuff out there concerning this, like you can somehow access your ancestors' memories.

that's not really what i'm talking about - to me, that sounds a little too fanciful.dna is a relatively recent discovery and obviously, there's still a lot to learn.

Fatfreek

An article Why Your DNA Isn't Your Destiny in the January 6 issue of TIME (link included here) shows compelling evidence that supports the following statement:

" ... Bygren and other scientists have now amassed historical evidence suggesting that powerful environmental conditions (near death from starvation, for instance) can somehow leave an imprint on the genetic material in eggs and sperm. These genetic imprints can short-circuit evolution and pass along new traits in a single generation."

Len Miller

40

Is it really okay for a JW to lie?

by dissed in

jw
friends

been away from the wts for 13 years and noticed at jwn many are mentioning its now okay for jw's to lie, if....... its for the right reasons.

like misleading the jw's and worldy people about district convention parking.

to raise monies for the wts.

Fatfreek

Hi Scully,

Wow, what an excellent treatise on the subtle techniques they use to push and shove and otherwise manipulate un-truth soas to appear truthful. That makes this thread a keeper for me. Oh, and say hello to that funny and burly guy of yours in that big and beautiful city of yours. We'll never forget our bread-breaking together.

Len

40

Is it really okay for a JW to lie?

by dissed in

jw
friends

been away from the wts for 13 years and noticed at jwn many are mentioning its now okay for jw's to lie, if....... its for the right reasons.

like misleading the jw's and worldy people about district convention parking.

to raise monies for the wts.

Fatfreek

You're very welcome, LukeWarm.

A Reporter's Comment from the Australian "Sunday" Program Television Show called "Silent Witnesses", which aired on Television on September 22nd, 2002 :

"Officially, the [Jehovah's Witness] church denies all knowledge of the concept of theocratic warfare"

Hmmmm ... Looks like yet one more lie on the tall pile of them. Let's check out some WT pubs on the term "Theocratic Warfare":

*** w50 4/15 p. 128 Gilead Graduates More Qualified Missionaries ***
WHEREAS we have been called in from the Canadian and American theaters of Theocratic warfare to be further trained and equipped at the Watchtower Bible School of Gilead and we desire to show our deep thankfulness and appreciation to Jehovah God and His organization for this blessed privilege of expanding our efficiency as Theocratic warriors;
THEREFORE we, the members of the fourteenth class and of the first class of the eventful international convention year of Jehovah’s witnesses, 1950, assembled at graduating exercises at South Lansing, New York, this day of February 5, 1950, do hereby resolve and declare:

*** w57 5/1 pp. 285-286 Use Theocratic War Strategy ***
A WITNESS of Jehovah was going from house to house in Eastern Germany when she met a violent opposer. Knowing at once what to expect she changed her red blouse for a green one in the very next hallway. No sooner had she appeared on the street than a Communist officer asked her if she had seen a woman with a red blouse. No, she replied, and went on her way. Did she tell a lie? No, she did not. She was not a liar. Rather, she was using theocratic war strategy, hiding the truth by action and word for the sake of the ministry.
In this she had good Scriptural precedent. Did not Rahab hide the Israelite spies by both action and word? Did not Abraham, Isaac, David and others likewise hide the truth at times when faced with a hostile enemy? They certainly did, and never do we read a word of censure for their doing so. Rather, we read of their being termed exemplary servants of Jehovah. Their actions were in line with Jesus’ wise counsel: "Look! I am sending you forth as sheep amidst wolves; therefore prove yourselves cautious as serpents and yet innocent as doves."--Matt. 10:16, NW.
Perhaps some will wonder as to where the line is to be drawn between use of theocratic war strategy in hiding the truth and the telling of lies. First of all, let it be noted that whenever one takes an oath to tell the truth he is obligated to do so. By dedicating himself to do God’s will each Christian has taken a vow or made an oath to do God’s will and to be faithful to him. To this oath he certainly must be true. Likewise, when a Christian is placed on a witness stand he is obligated to speak the truth if he speaks at all. At times he may prefer to refuse to speak and suffer the consequences rather than betray his brothers or the interests of God’s work. And, of course, there is no occasion for use of war strategy when dealing with our Christian brothers. In dealing with them we tell the truth or tactfully remind them that what they seek to know does not concern them.
Lies are untruths told for selfish reasons and which work injury to others. Satan told a lie to Eve that worked great harm to her and all the human race. Ananias and Sapphira told lies for selfish reasons. But hiding the truth, which he is not entitled to know, from an enemy does not harm him, especially when he would use such information to harm others who are innocent.
A great work is being done by the witnesses even in lands where their activity is banned. The only way they can fulfill the command to preach the good news of God’s kingdom is by use of theocratic war strategy. By underground methods the literature is brought into the country and distributed. Would it make sense to hide this literature by one’s actions and then reveal its whereabouts by one’s words when queried? Of course not! So in time of spiritual warfare it is proper to misdirect the enemy by hiding the truth. It is done unselfishly; it does not harm anyone; on the contrary, it does much good.
Today God’s servants are engaged in a warfare, a spiritual, theocratic warfare, a warfare ordered by God against wicked spirit forces and against false teachings. God’s servants are sent forth as sheep among wolves and therefore need to exercise the extreme caution of serpents so as to protect properly the interests of God’s kingdom committed to them. At all times they must be very careful not to divulge any information to the enemy that he could use to hamper the preaching work.

*** w83 7/15 p. 19 par. 13 Walking With God in a Violent World ***
Jesus thus made it plain that theocratic warfare from that time on was not to include the use of carnal weapons.

40

Is it really okay for a JW to lie?

by dissed in

jw
friends

been away from the wts for 13 years and noticed at jwn many are mentioning its now okay for jw's to lie, if....... its for the right reasons.

like misleading the jw's and worldy people about district convention parking.

to raise monies for the wts.

Fatfreek

Dissed,

The case was begun when, in spite of previous unsuccessful attempts to have the courts recognize the claims of Jehovah’s witnesses, the president of the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society directed that the position be tested again. An action for declarator was brought in Scotland that asked the Court of Session to declare that Douglas Walsh was a "regular minister" because of his appointment as a pioneer and also because of his appointment as a congregation servant. The case became known as Walsh v. The Lord Advocate.
...

SOCIETY OFFICIALS FLY FROM NEW YORK
H. C. Covington, a United States barrister and the Watch Tower Society’s general counsel, had been present for the preliminary hearing in a supervisory capacity. Now it was determined that he and two other senior officers would fly from New York to give evidence at the trial. Thus the Society came to the side of Douglas Walsh, showing in a very practical way that it stands ready to fight for the lawful rights of Jehovah’s witnesses throughout the world.

The case was prepared so that F. W. Franz, vice-president of the Society, was the first to go into the witness box. Quoting liberally from the Bible in his hand, he outlined the beliefs of Jehovah’s witnesses, especially those that differ from the orthodox. He explained, too, the basic reason for the existence of Jehovah’s witnesses today: that 1914 marked the beginning of Christ’s second presence in Kingdom power and that a great work must be done to announce this fact to mankind before the war of Armageddon soon destroys the old, satanic system of things. Franz used the splendid opportunity he had to give a fine witness.
*** Watchtower, 1955, 6/1 pp. 329-330 Jehovah’s Witnesses--A Religion Without Ministers? ***

As quoted in my earlier post (which you won't find in pages of the above Watchtower for obvious reasons), what got Franz into trouble with the prosecutor was the Society's teaching change -- the modification of the long-taught 1874 date which they altered to the currently-taught 1914. The prosecutor was able to squeeze out of Franz's mouth that there are punitive measures (disfellowshipping) for believing and spreading truth when it is not in line with current teaching. Unity at all costs is their motto.

You may Google the terms -- Franz Walsh Trial -- and come up with nearly 1,000,000 hits. The top one I got is as follows:
http://www.lulu.com/content/762879

You will see that it is now a free download for the entire transcript. For what it's worth, one of the members of this board paid some $3,000 for a copy some 4 years ago.

Len

40

Is it really okay for a JW to lie?

by dissed in

jw
friends

been away from the wts for 13 years and noticed at jwn many are mentioning its now okay for jw's to lie, if....... its for the right reasons.

like misleading the jw's and worldy people about district convention parking.

to raise monies for the wts.

Fatfreek

Hi Dissed,

While Fred Franz wasn't the father of the lie, his testimony in the Walsh trial was far before you and I left the JW's. Here, Franz is being questioned by a prosecutor -- this a matter of public record. Your experiences are not surprising since all who you mention are merely following Franz's example. Len Miller

Q. It was promulgated as a matter which must be believed by all members of Jehovah's witnesses that the Lord's Second Coming took place in 1874?
(A short discussion of evidence given by Fred W Franz about 1874 takes place here.)

Q. That was the publication of false prophecy?
A. That was the publication of a false prophecy, it was a false statement or an erroneous statement in fulfillment of a prophecy that was false or erroneous.Q. And that had to be believed by the whole of Jehovah's Witnesses?
A. Yes, because you must understand, we must have unity, we cannot have disunity with a lot of people going every way, an army is supposed to march in step.
Q. Back to the point now, a false prophecy was promulgated? A. I agree to that.Q. It had to be accepted by Jehovah's witnesses?
A. That is correct.Q. If a member of Jehovah's witnesses took the view himself that that prophecy was wrong, and said so, would he be disfellowshipped?
A. Yes, if he said so, and kept on persisting in creating trouble, because if the whole organisation believes one thing, even though it be erroneous, and somebody else starts on his own trying to put his ideas across, then there is a disunity and trouble, there cannot be harmony, there cannot be marching ...... Our purpose is to haveunity. Q. Unity at all costs?
A. Unity at all costs, because we believe and are sure that Jehovah God is using our organisation,the governing body of our organisation, to direct it, even though mistakes are made from time to time. Q. A unity based on an enforced acceptance of false prophecy? A. That is conceded to be true.
Q. And the person who expresses his view, as you say, that it was wrong, and was disfellowshipped, would be in breach of the covenant, if he was baptised?
A. That is correct.Q. And as you said yesterday expressly, would be worthy of death?
A. I think....
Q. Would you say yes or no?
A. I will answer yes, unhesitatingly.Q. Do you call that religion?
A. It certainly is.Q. Do you call that Christianity?
A. I certainly do.

37

What did Jesus mean by "this generation"?

by Doug Mason in

by looking at every occasion that jesus used the expression "this generation", it is possible to work out what he meant.. i have listed these occasions, along with some questions, at:.

http://www.jwstudies.com/this_generation.pdf.

i am interested to know what you think.. doug.

Fatfreek

This thread, along with many recent ones, are logical fallout in view of the Society's recently announced 6th position with regard to "this generation". Since they have always subscribed to "this generation" as being well beyond Jesus' day, they automatically class themselves as Adventists. Oh, they don't like to be called that but they simply cannot escape the facts. Here they are:

"The term Adventist generally refers to someone who believes in the Second Advent of Jesus (popularly known as the Second coming) in the tradition of the Millerites." Re Adventism, Wikipedia

William Miller is widely accepted to be father of the Adventist movement that began during the 1800's. Any JW's who've read early Watchtowers (known then as Zion's Watch Tower And "Herald of Christ's Presence) become surprised and shocked at the fact that Charles T. Russell greatly admired Miller and that Miller's view of of Christ's second advent merely missed Russell's then accepted advent target (1874) by only 30 years. To Russell, that was simply a bump in the road. To illustrate the degree of honor Russell had for William Miller is that he referred to Miller as Father Miller within Watchtower pages. Even Rutherford, during the 1920's referred to him as Brother Miller.

In his first issue of ZWT here's what Russell said, "I have been a Bible student since I first had my attention called to the second coming of our Lord, by Jonas Wendel, a Second Advent Preacher, about 1869, who was then preaching the burning of the world as being due in 1873. But though he first awakened my interest on the subject, I was not a convert, either to the time he suggested nor to the events he predicted." Russell here didn't deny adventism. He only disagreed with the time and the events that Wendel had settled on.

Further in that inaugural issue of JULY 1, 1879, Zion's Watch Tower under heading of Why will there be a Second Advent?, Russell teaches, "That the second coming of our Lord Jesus occupies a prominent and important position in the teaching of the apostles and prophets, as well as of Jesus himself, is a fact that can scarcely fail to have been noticed by every Bible student."

I can see the WT Adventist ship tacking once again, zig-zagging its way into its 6th teaching position on This Generation. How many sailors eventually jump ship as a result will probably never be known for certain.

Len Miller

37

What did Jesus mean by "this generation"?

by Doug Mason in

by looking at every occasion that jesus used the expression "this generation", it is possible to work out what he meant.. i have listed these occasions, along with some questions, at:.

http://www.jwstudies.com/this_generation.pdf.

i am interested to know what you think.. doug.

Fatfreek

Hi Doug,

Very compelling when you look at all the instances laid out as you have. The context clearly shows that he was addressing and referring to his contemporaries, those living in his day -- his generation.

If Jesus was talking of a future generation, would he have said to the people in front of him “this generation”, or would he have said “that generation”?

He would have said "that" but only if the word "that" was available in those days. Hmmm ... let's see, using the WT Lib counter in the four gospel accounts that word exists some 1,277 times. So, yes -- it was available.

Thanks for sharing the insight.

Len

8

Large download, Golden Age, Consolation, Kingdom News -- searchable?

by Fatfreek in

a recent thread mentions the following link to download the above-mentioned publications.

at 530 mb size, that is a sizeable download on my slow connection.

i'd like to do it but only if the documents are text-searchable.. http://thepiratebay.org/torrent/4215561/watchtower_periodic_%28golden_age__consolation__kingdom_news.

Fatfreek

Hi Possible-san,

Thanks for those tips.

Len