Posts by Jeffro

27

Yet another problem for Watch Tower Society apologists

by Jeffro in

amos 1:1 is set during the reigns of both uzziah and jeroboam (ii), "two years before the earthquake".. geologists* have dated this earthquake to around 760bce, with an error margin of plus or minus 25 years.. *steven a. austin, gordon w. franz, and eric g. frost, "amos's earthquake: an extraordinary middle east seismic event of 750 b.c.

" international geology review 42 (2000) 657-671. y. yadin, hazor, the rediscovery of a great citadel of the bible (new york: random house, 1975).

i. finkelstein, "hazor and the north in the iron age: a low chronology perspective," bulletin of the american schools of oriental research 314 (1999) 55-70. d. ussishkin, "lachish" in e. stern, ed., the new encyclopedia of archaeological excavations in the holy land (new york: simon & schuster, 1993) vol.

Jeffro

AnnOMaly:

No, you misunderstand

No. I just don't agree.

Geologists stating that an earthquake was within the range of 780BCE to 720BCE (750BCE ± 30 years [or 785BCE to 735BCE for the later estimates of 760BCE ± 25 years]) doesn't really sound anything like 'we know Jeroboam II was around from 793BCE to 753BCE so it must have been then', because their estimates cover only part of that period, and a significantly later period. If they were merely basing their findings on the expected years of a particular reign, they would more likely have said 'early 8th century BCE'.

how do they date strata independently, scientifically, without being influenced by historical chronologies?

I don't know the specific methods of chronostratigraphy involved.

142

Do you beleive in ghosts??

by quellycatface in

jw
friends

i was always told it was satan and his demons making people think they exist.

not sure.

i always thought the guy that excavated king tutenkahmun had a curse on him though.. .

Jeffro

nicolaou:

Why exactly do the naughty demons want to do this?

To stop people learning about JWs of course. Silly nicolaou.

27

Yet another problem for Watch Tower Society apologists

by Jeffro in

amos 1:1 is set during the reigns of both uzziah and jeroboam (ii), "two years before the earthquake".. geologists* have dated this earthquake to around 760bce, with an error margin of plus or minus 25 years.. *steven a. austin, gordon w. franz, and eric g. frost, "amos's earthquake: an extraordinary middle east seismic event of 750 b.c.

" international geology review 42 (2000) 657-671. y. yadin, hazor, the rediscovery of a great citadel of the bible (new york: random house, 1975).

i. finkelstein, "hazor and the north in the iron age: a low chronology perspective," bulletin of the american schools of oriental research 314 (1999) 55-70. d. ussishkin, "lachish" in e. stern, ed., the new encyclopedia of archaeological excavations in the holy land (new york: simon & schuster, 1993) vol.

Jeffro

AnnOMaly:

The difficulty is going to be, though, that the archaeologists say, "Yes, the debris appears in this stratum which is c. Jeroboam II level. Jeroboam II reigned, of course, in the mid-8th century BCE as has been established. Ergo, the debris dates to the mid-8th century BCE."

That doesn't seem to be the case. Danzig is fairly liberal with his complaints, but says nothing about the geologists allegedly 'trying' to make the earthquake fit the time period of Jeroboam. Austin quotes Yadin, saying that, "Earthquake debris at six sites (Hazor, Deir 'Alla, Gezer, Lachish, Tell Judeideh, and 'En Haseva) is tightly confined stratigraphically to the middle of the eighth century B.C., with dating errors of ~30 years" (italics added; the error is given as 25 years in some sources). The margin for error provided isn't consistent with merely 'trying' to make the geological dating of the strata 'fit' the traditional dating of Jeroboam's reign, but on geological methods. The fact that the earlier sources suggest 750 BCE also doesn't help the suggestion that they were merely trying to 'fit' the reign of Jeroboam, whose reign is traditionally dated as ending in 753BCE. The older geological estimates (750 ± 30) place the earthquake in the range of 780BCE to 720BCE, and the more recent estimates (760 ± 25) place it in the range of 785BCE to 735BCE. Neither of those ranges equates to the reign of Jeroboam, though it overlaps.

27

Yet another problem for Watch Tower Society apologists

by Jeffro in

amos 1:1 is set during the reigns of both uzziah and jeroboam (ii), "two years before the earthquake".. geologists* have dated this earthquake to around 760bce, with an error margin of plus or minus 25 years.. *steven a. austin, gordon w. franz, and eric g. frost, "amos's earthquake: an extraordinary middle east seismic event of 750 b.c.

" international geology review 42 (2000) 657-671. y. yadin, hazor, the rediscovery of a great citadel of the bible (new york: random house, 1975).

i. finkelstein, "hazor and the north in the iron age: a low chronology perspective," bulletin of the american schools of oriental research 314 (1999) 55-70. d. ussishkin, "lachish" in e. stern, ed., the new encyclopedia of archaeological excavations in the holy land (new york: simon & schuster, 1993) vol.

Jeffro

AnnOMaly:

The contention seems to be, though, whether the debris is a result of a quake in the first place.

Of course the available evidence isn't absolutely conclusive. Yet Danzig doesn't dispute the timing assigned to the the strata, and he acknowledges that something sparked rebuilding efforts around that time (though Danzig speculates that it might have been due to a period of disuse, which is equally if not more unfounded). It is, at the very least, plausible that the geologists have indeed correctly identified the period of the quake; in any case, the fact remains that there is no support for the Watch Tower Society's chronology.

142

Do you beleive in ghosts??

by quellycatface in

jw
friends

i was always told it was satan and his demons making people think they exist.

not sure.

i always thought the guy that excavated king tutenkahmun had a curse on him though.. .

Jeffro

Seraphim23:

Another would be dreams of future events that come true.

Got any evidence?

For this to be reliably tested, the details of the dream would need to be recorded in detail and publically available prior to the alleged fulfilment.

The following kinds of events could not be counted as 'evidence':

Mundane occurrences
Frequent or recurring events
Anticipated or reasonably predictable upcoming events
Merely similar details

224

Another problem for JW apologists

by Jeffro in

the 2013 edition of the new world translation renders 2 kings 17:1 as:.

in the 12th year of king ahaz of judah, hoshea the son of elah became king over israel in samaria; he ruled for nine years.. this is in fact a better rendering than the previous nwt, which stated:.

in the twelfth year of ahaz the king of judah, hoshea the son of elah became king in samaria over israel for nine years.. despite their improved rendering, the watch tower society still claims that hoshea's reign 'really' began in 758 bce, but that it was 'established' in the 12th year of ahaz.

Jeffro

scholiar:

Bully for you for you need to update not but that but also the seventy years, I have my daughter and grandkids over Xmas but will respond to those posts that I have missed when they leave mid this week.

Huh? I already have the seventy years correct. No changes are necessary.

Merry Christmas, scholar.

142

Do you beleive in ghosts??

by quellycatface in

jw
friends

i was always told it was satan and his demons making people think they exist.

not sure.

i always thought the guy that excavated king tutenkahmun had a curse on him though.. .

Jeffro

Seraphim23:

So child abuse is far more serious of course

In other news, it's darker at night time.

As a young child, you imagined seeing a magician outside while watching a magician on TV. If that traumatised you, you probably have bigger issues to deal with.

142

Do you beleive in ghosts??

by quellycatface in

jw
friends

i was always told it was satan and his demons making people think they exist.

not sure.

i always thought the guy that excavated king tutenkahmun had a curse on him though.. .

Jeffro

Seraphim23:

If you doubt my 5 year old self that’s fine with me. People often dismiss what children say as true. The WT also does similar when it comes to sexual abuse allegations without the required amount of witnesses.

Ooh... nice bait and switch (not). Your 'imaginary magician' is not at all comparable to child abuse.

My honesty along with my intellectual integrity is unknown to you

Your 'honesty' is not particularly relevant to the imagination of a five year old child. No one doubts that you believe you saw what you think you saw.

27

Yet another problem for Watch Tower Society apologists

by Jeffro in

amos 1:1 is set during the reigns of both uzziah and jeroboam (ii), "two years before the earthquake".. geologists* have dated this earthquake to around 760bce, with an error margin of plus or minus 25 years.. *steven a. austin, gordon w. franz, and eric g. frost, "amos's earthquake: an extraordinary middle east seismic event of 750 b.c.

" international geology review 42 (2000) 657-671. y. yadin, hazor, the rediscovery of a great citadel of the bible (new york: random house, 1975).

i. finkelstein, "hazor and the north in the iron age: a low chronology perspective," bulletin of the american schools of oriental research 314 (1999) 55-70. d. ussishkin, "lachish" in e. stern, ed., the new encyclopedia of archaeological excavations in the holy land (new york: simon & schuster, 1993) vol.

Jeffro

Bobcat:

Secular dating puts Jonah's visit to Ninevah possibly on the heals of these events adding reason to why the Ninevites reacted possitively to Jonah's message.

I would not like to speculate about 'Jonah', as that story smacks of folklore. Amos' 'prophecy', like many biblical and extra-biblical ancient writings, was more likely a historical account presented as 'prophecy' as a narrative device. (The fact that it includes the statement, 'two years before the earthquake' is a pretty big clue that it was actually written afterwards but retrodated.) However, it at least includes specific points of reference. The story about 'Jonah' provides nothing usable at all, because the net result is that nothing happened.

27

Yet another problem for Watch Tower Society apologists

by Jeffro in

amos 1:1 is set during the reigns of both uzziah and jeroboam (ii), "two years before the earthquake".. geologists* have dated this earthquake to around 760bce, with an error margin of plus or minus 25 years.. *steven a. austin, gordon w. franz, and eric g. frost, "amos's earthquake: an extraordinary middle east seismic event of 750 b.c.

" international geology review 42 (2000) 657-671. y. yadin, hazor, the rediscovery of a great citadel of the bible (new york: random house, 1975).

i. finkelstein, "hazor and the north in the iron age: a low chronology perspective," bulletin of the american schools of oriental research 314 (1999) 55-70. d. ussishkin, "lachish" in e. stern, ed., the new encyclopedia of archaeological excavations in the holy land (new york: simon & schuster, 1993) vol.

Jeffro

AnnOMaly:

However, it felt a little too convenient - wanted to check some things first

I was a bit skeptical of one of the sources too. One of the more recent researchers, Steve A. Austin, has a Ph.D in geology , but is also a creationist who believes in 'the Deluge' . However, his information about Amos' earthquake states that "Earthquake debris at six sites (Hazor, Deir 'Alla, Gezer, Lachish, Tell Judeideh, and 'En Haseva) is tightly confined stratigraphically to the middle of the eighth century B.C.," rather than claiming that it was 'linked to biblical dates'. Austin's work (et al) was published in the International Geology Review rather than a creationist publication.