Posts by Jeffro

271

VAT4956 - 530 BC destruction of Jerusalem by Nebuchadnezzar

by jwposter in

in my studies, i have concluded that year 530 bc was when the destruction of jerusalem occurred and the temple destroyed.

i had determined this prior to investigation of vat4956.

i had already found that the jubilees, sabbaticals, courses of the priests, and chronology attested to this.

Jeffro

Definitely incorrect.

Not only are the claims about astronomy obviously wrong, but this is clearly an attempt to ‘force’ details to fit a particular superstitious interpretation about Jesus.

56

Old Greek Daniel's Son of Man

by peacefulpete in

again this is large topic, some of which has been discussed elsewhere on this site.

the basic question i want to discuss is the identification of the 'someone like a son of man" in daniel 7. as we all know christians understood the figure to be the messiah (christ), so the question posed is did the author intend it to be a singular personage or a collective symbol of the holy of israel as jews typically read it?

or how about the unexpected idea that the "someone like a son of man" was the very same character as the "ancient of days" in another role?.

Jeffro

KoW:

the first Chanukah celebration and the death of Antiochus in 164 BCE, when the Temple was liberated and rededicated

Temple was rededicated in December 165 BCE, prior to the death of Antiochus IV in 164BCE.

144

Hailstone message AND everyone will be saved? Questions

by slimboyfat in

i’ve not been paying close attention to watchtower developments, but talking to a jw yesterday it occurred to me the society (yes, still use that term - old school) have been sending out mixed messages in recent years.

from what i gather, a few years ago the gb announced that during the great tribulation jws would be required to preach a “hailstone message of judgement” which involved telling people it was too late for them to repent and they were definitely going to be destroyed.

there were hints that this could be very soon, “any day now” preaching could stop and the hailstone message come in, kind of thing.

Jeffro

That good news will become more hard-hitting as time goes on, causing people to make a decision one way or the other, whether they accept the Kingdom or not.

Maybe they should focus more on saying things that are actually true rather than (hypothetically) trying harder to intimidate people into their nutty religion with fallacious appeals to fear.

56

Old Greek Daniel's Son of Man

by peacefulpete in

again this is large topic, some of which has been discussed elsewhere on this site.

the basic question i want to discuss is the identification of the 'someone like a son of man" in daniel 7. as we all know christians understood the figure to be the messiah (christ), so the question posed is did the author intend it to be a singular personage or a collective symbol of the holy of israel as jews typically read it?

or how about the unexpected idea that the "someone like a son of man" was the very same character as the "ancient of days" in another role?.

Jeffro

Vidqun:

quite apt for a heavenly setting, where a human would not survive

How could you possibly know whether a human in a vision could survive in an imaginary place? Apparently Abraham could survive in heaven to dispense drops of water to people in hell, so there’s no basis for saying ‘a human couldn’t survive’ in the given context.

The term used just means ‘a human’.

144

Hailstone message AND everyone will be saved? Questions

by slimboyfat in

i’ve not been paying close attention to watchtower developments, but talking to a jw yesterday it occurred to me the society (yes, still use that term - old school) have been sending out mixed messages in recent years.

from what i gather, a few years ago the gb announced that during the great tribulation jws would be required to preach a “hailstone message of judgement” which involved telling people it was too late for them to repent and they were definitely going to be destroyed.

there were hints that this could be very soon, “any day now” preaching could stop and the hailstone message come in, kind of thing.

Jeffro

The Watchtower, July 2023, page 2:

How will we respond if we are asked to preach a hard-hitting judgment message and unbelievers oppose us? (Rev. 16:21) We will need endurance to obey Jehovah, trusting that he will protect us. What will we do if our brothers lose some or all of their material things? (Hab. 3:17, 18) We will need compassion to move us to provide them with relief. How will we react if, as a result of the attack by a coalition of nations, we have to live in close quarters with our brothers and sisters for a while? (Ezek. 38:10-12) We will need strong love for them to help us get through that difficult time.

The Watchtower, May 2022, page 7:

During the great tribulation, the final judgment message will become more hard-hitting.

The Watchtower, November 2022, page 7:

Why is it vital to read the Bible and meditate on it? Doing so gives us the inner strength we need to preach the Kingdom message now and to proclaim the hard-hitting judgment message that we may deliver in the near future.

The Watchtower, May 2020, page 15:

That symbolic hailstorm may take the form of a hard-hitting judgment message delivered by Jehovah’s people. It could be that this message provokes Gog of Magog into attacking God’s people with the intention of wiping them off the earth.—Rev. 16:21.
15 This hard-hitting message and the final attack by God’s enemies may be the same events referred to at Daniel 11:44, 45.

Life and Ministry Meeting Workbook, August 2020, page 3:

During that tumultuous time, we may well deliver a hard-hitting judgment message.

The Watchtower, October 2019, page 16:

During the great tribulation, the message that we proclaim will likely change. Currently, we are preaching the good news of the Kingdom and we are endeavoring to make disciples. But at that time, we may well deliver a message as hard-hitting as hailstones.

The Watchtower, 15 July 2015, page 16:

This will not be the time to preach the “good news of the Kingdom.” That time will have passed. The time for “the end” will have come! (Matt. 24:14) No doubt God’s people will proclaim a hard-hitting judgment message. This may well involve a declaration announcing that Satan’s wicked world is about to come to its complete end.

21

Field Service

by Ding in

for those who are still attending meetings, what is happening at your congregation regarding field service now that reporting of hours is no longer required?.

are the elders pushing for people to go out in service anyway?.

what is the response?.

Jeffro

Magnum:

Jeffro, do you remember how we discussed that on this forum maybe ten or twelve years ago? A lot us really thought the org had hired a PR firm back then.

Yes, if not a bit vaguely, and it definitely seems that they did get some PR advice. But I wasn't aware that it was actually confirmed.

144

Hailstone message AND everyone will be saved? Questions

by slimboyfat in

i’ve not been paying close attention to watchtower developments, but talking to a jw yesterday it occurred to me the society (yes, still use that term - old school) have been sending out mixed messages in recent years.

from what i gather, a few years ago the gb announced that during the great tribulation jws would be required to preach a “hailstone message of judgement” which involved telling people it was too late for them to repent and they were definitely going to be destroyed.

there were hints that this could be very soon, “any day now” preaching could stop and the hailstone message come in, kind of thing.

Jeffro

Pure Worship, page 198:

Sometime after false religion is devastated, Jehovah may well have his people deliver a hard-hitting message, one that the book of Revelation likens to a hailstorm in which each hailstone weighs about 45 pounds (20 kg).

Apparently it's very important to let people know what a hypothetical warning weighs. 🤦‍♂️

56

Old Greek Daniel's Son of Man

by peacefulpete in

again this is large topic, some of which has been discussed elsewhere on this site.

the basic question i want to discuss is the identification of the 'someone like a son of man" in daniel 7. as we all know christians understood the figure to be the messiah (christ), so the question posed is did the author intend it to be a singular personage or a collective symbol of the holy of israel as jews typically read it?

or how about the unexpected idea that the "someone like a son of man" was the very same character as the "ancient of days" in another role?.

Jeffro

Vidqun:

Jesus referred to himself as "Son of man" approximately 60 times

Well, he might have. We have no idea what Jesus said. All we have is stories written decades after his death. But even then, he had the book of Daniel available to him, so claiming to be the 'son of man' (completely contorting the original purpose of the phrase) would be entirely unremarkable. See also Psalm 146:3.

And Ezekiel is called the 'son of man' more than 90 times, if we're just playing by the numbers. 🙄

56

Old Greek Daniel's Son of Man

by peacefulpete in

again this is large topic, some of which has been discussed elsewhere on this site.

the basic question i want to discuss is the identification of the 'someone like a son of man" in daniel 7. as we all know christians understood the figure to be the messiah (christ), so the question posed is did the author intend it to be a singular personage or a collective symbol of the holy of israel as jews typically read it?

or how about the unexpected idea that the "someone like a son of man" was the very same character as the "ancient of days" in another role?.

Jeffro

Just to clarify, the overall theme of Daniel was a (hoped for) Maccabean victory over Syria, which does imply a Maccabean king. But the supernatural imagery in Daniel 7:13 is so vague that the author could have intended a subsequent permanent Davidic lineage ruling at some point. The passage is ultimately hyperbole representing independent rule from Jerusalem rather than being subject to other nations, so there's no point trying to take it literally.

(Note that Daniel 8:17 refers to the pseudonymous author of Daniel as "son of man", which could imply that the anonymous author of Daniel thought of himself as the potential king, though use of the phrase there is probably just coincidental.)

56

Old Greek Daniel's Son of Man

by peacefulpete in

again this is large topic, some of which has been discussed elsewhere on this site.

the basic question i want to discuss is the identification of the 'someone like a son of man" in daniel 7. as we all know christians understood the figure to be the messiah (christ), so the question posed is did the author intend it to be a singular personage or a collective symbol of the holy of israel as jews typically read it?

or how about the unexpected idea that the "someone like a son of man" was the very same character as the "ancient of days" in another role?.

Jeffro

peacefulpete:

I'll add that no mention is made of David or Davidic messianism. Not all sects of Judaism shared that particular idea and it would appear the author had opportunity but did not include this concept.

It’s impossible to say for sure. The book of Daniel overall is intentionally cryptic. Davidic lineage was obviously a prominent belief, and the author of Daniel doesn’t specify any other lineage, though it’s possible that the author had some alternative in mind (and likely favouring the Maccabees). One ‘benefit’ of being less specific is it allows greater latitude for supposed ‘fulfilments’, which may or may not have also been intentional.