this is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?
god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.
in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.
Halcon:
The alternative, the story in isolation, would have been ongoing life for Adam...making love to his wife... making children....in a paradise... without struggle...
No, that isn’t indicated in the story. The story indicates that the god is capricious and deceptive. Who knows what else it would do to the naive unwitting people if they continued ignorant.
this is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?
god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.
in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.
Halcon:
The snake was clearly at fault in my opinion.
But that isn’t because of an honest examination of the story in isolation. It’s been drummed into your head which character is necessarily good no matter what, and the characters have been distorted by characterisations in other stories.
the first mention i find in the wts publications is 1958. although the wts says the index goes from 1930 to 1985, nothing appears before 1958 a search only found by using the phrase "spiritual paradise" not in the index.
in 2015 there was a clarification of the phrase "of course, we should not conclude that the terms “spiritual paradise” and “spiritual temple” are the same.
the spiritual temple is god’s arrangement for true worship.".
Paradise is barely mentioned in the Bible (and never in the sense of a global paradise on earth), and ‘spiritual paradise’ isn’t in there at all.
this is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?
god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.
in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.
TonusOH:
I don't see a context in which the snake is good, at least as a counterbalance to god.
Indeed. It’s a particularly naive objection that if one is ‘bad’ in the story, then that must mean the other is ‘the good one’. Neither of them is ‘good’. It’s a co-opted story that has subsequently had its characters conflated with separate characterisations from other stories. Without the baggage of associating the god in the story with other notions about God, no one would consider either of them particularly nice.
I think the focus on "who lied first" is a distraction
To the extent that it’s just a story, that is true. But it is actually a key element when the baggage is stripped away. The story superimposes Yahweh, Adam and Eve into an adaptation of an older Babylonian story (and only later was Satan superimposed on the snake character). The god and the snake in the original story are more nuanced than just ‘good’ and ‘bad’.
the first mention i find in the wts publications is 1958. although the wts says the index goes from 1930 to 1985, nothing appears before 1958 a search only found by using the phrase "spiritual paradise" not in the index.
in 2015 there was a clarification of the phrase "of course, we should not conclude that the terms “spiritual paradise” and “spiritual temple” are the same.
the spiritual temple is god’s arrangement for true worship.".
Vindication, volume 2 (1932), page 275:
The Watchtower, 15 June 1949, page 189:The work of God's people will continue to increase and flourish even as it has since 1919. It is likened unto the garden of Eden; for tho hand of the Lord is upon it.
Thus Isaiah's prophecy showed that Jehovah's Theocratic organization Zion would come to a paradise condition as respects beauty and prosperity. That was already true in a measure in the apostle Paul's day. But in 1918, at the climax of World War I, the condition of Zion's spiritual children on earth was desolate because of oppression by her Babylonish enemies. Yet since 1919 a beauty and prosperity greater than what obtained with the Christian church in the first century has been bestowed upon them. ... Jehovah God has done this in our day, and the earthly state of Zion's children is now in a paradise condition spiritually, like the "garden of pleasure".
the first mention i find in the wts publications is 1958. although the wts says the index goes from 1930 to 1985, nothing appears before 1958 a search only found by using the phrase "spiritual paradise" not in the index.
in 2015 there was a clarification of the phrase "of course, we should not conclude that the terms “spiritual paradise” and “spiritual temple” are the same.
the spiritual temple is god’s arrangement for true worship.".
You May Survive Armageddon Into God's New World (1955), page 296:
The spiritual remnant, the original part and those who have been added to them since 1919 and down to 1931, have done great spiritual reconstructive work, converting their once desolate-looking earthly estate into one that resembles the paradise of Eden. ... However, the restored remnant were not to enjoy this spiritual paradise to themselves.
Pages 349-350:
The desolations that Jehovah of armies will have wreaked on the enemy's visible organization may be everywhere visible on the earth, yet the Armageddon survivors will start out with a spiritual paradise in the fullest sense. ... That spiritual paradise will never disappear from the "new earth."
this is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?
god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.
in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.
sloppyjoe2:
Do you have any article links where they talk about it?
The Watchtower, 1 April 1984, page 31:
We do know that mortal humans—even perfect humans having the prospect of endless life on earth—must eat and drink to maintain life, or they die and their bodies experience corruption.
2024-07-july-s-147 announcements!.
https://pdfhost.io/v/96mkpxpq1_untitled_1 .
grandpa!.
KerryKing:
Is that letter read out at a public meeting?
The part about prisoners is read at the meeting, typically this would be at the ‘mid-week meeting’. The part about children running the audio equipment is only for elders.
this is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?
god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.
in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.
Phizzy:
This Thread has reminded me of the time a JW dad was trying to instil in his son the need to always tell the truth, so dad asked his son "Who told the first Lie ?", and his little son promptly replied "Rosie", referring to his little friend who had lied an hour or so before.
But now your comment has reminded me of that awful ‘Become Jehovah’s Friend’ pilot episode where the mother asks Caleb, “Is this toy magical?”… (No, of course it’s not magical. It’s a piece of plastic.) “Who likes magic? Jehovah? 🥴 Or Sa’an?” 🐍
Thanks for that. 🤣
2024-07-july-s-147 announcements!.
https://pdfhost.io/v/96mkpxpq1_untitled_1 .
grandpa!.
Are they really so desperate for suitable people to operate audio equipment that it's become necessary for 12-year-olds to do it?? I suppose that's a better alternative to... gasp... a... woman doing it. 😲
