this is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?
god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.
in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.
Halcon:
God simply said 'you will die'... whereas the snake said 'you will not die '.
And the snake was right. She ate the fruit and didn’t die. The god in the story took separate steps after its lie about the knowledge fruit was made evident.
If I tell you that you will die if you eat a meal today, it doesn’t make that meal causative of the fact that you will die some day. 🤦♂️ (And it makes me no better if I decide to kill you if you eat a meal.)
this is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?
god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.
in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.
TonusOH:
I accept the premise that the serpent deceived Eve.
It didn’t. The wise serpent (the same word translated ‘crafty’ or ‘cunning’ is translated as ‘wise’ or ‘prudent’ in Proverbs) truthfully told Eve that eating the fruit doesn’t actually cause death. After ‘the jig was up’ when it became evident that eating the fruit doesn’t cause death, the god takes separate steps to prevent the humans from living forever.
But where does the serpent come from? God must have created it.
A valid question and conclusion if the story is (erroneously) taken as an original Jewish story, and in the context of later Christian interpretations. But in reality, the snake, the god, and the god’s entourage, are all borrowed tropes from an older story.
this is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?
god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.
in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.
Halcon:
The entire story is maybe 14 , 15 verses.
Seems you must be reading a different story. 🤣
this is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?
god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.
in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.
Halcon:
There is nothing capricious or deceptive by God found in those verses.
Genesis 3:22-24:
22 And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.” 23 So the Lord God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the groundfrom which he had been taken. 24 After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming swordflashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.Maybe you’re reading a different story. Or just so enamoured with the character based on other stories that you can’t see that the character is a jerk.
this is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?
god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.
in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.
Halcon:
The alternative, the story in isolation, would have been ongoing life for Adam...making love to his wife... making children....in a paradise... without struggle...
No, that isn’t indicated in the story. The story indicates that the god is capricious and deceptive. Who knows what else it would do to the naive unwitting people if they continued ignorant.
this is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?
god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.
in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.
Halcon:
The snake was clearly at fault in my opinion.
But that isn’t because of an honest examination of the story in isolation. It’s been drummed into your head which character is necessarily good no matter what, and the characters have been distorted by characterisations in other stories.
the first mention i find in the wts publications is 1958. although the wts says the index goes from 1930 to 1985, nothing appears before 1958 a search only found by using the phrase "spiritual paradise" not in the index.
in 2015 there was a clarification of the phrase "of course, we should not conclude that the terms “spiritual paradise” and “spiritual temple” are the same.
the spiritual temple is god’s arrangement for true worship.".
Paradise is barely mentioned in the Bible (and never in the sense of a global paradise on earth), and ‘spiritual paradise’ isn’t in there at all.
this is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?
god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.
in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.
TonusOH:
I don't see a context in which the snake is good, at least as a counterbalance to god.
Indeed. It’s a particularly naive objection that if one is ‘bad’ in the story, then that must mean the other is ‘the good one’. Neither of them is ‘good’. It’s a co-opted story that has subsequently had its characters conflated with separate characterisations from other stories. Without the baggage of associating the god in the story with other notions about God, no one would consider either of them particularly nice.
I think the focus on "who lied first" is a distraction
To the extent that it’s just a story, that is true. But it is actually a key element when the baggage is stripped away. The story superimposes Yahweh, Adam and Eve into an adaptation of an older Babylonian story (and only later was Satan superimposed on the snake character). The god and the snake in the original story are more nuanced than just ‘good’ and ‘bad’.
the first mention i find in the wts publications is 1958. although the wts says the index goes from 1930 to 1985, nothing appears before 1958 a search only found by using the phrase "spiritual paradise" not in the index.
in 2015 there was a clarification of the phrase "of course, we should not conclude that the terms “spiritual paradise” and “spiritual temple” are the same.
the spiritual temple is god’s arrangement for true worship.".
Vindication, volume 2 (1932), page 275:
The Watchtower, 15 June 1949, page 189:The work of God's people will continue to increase and flourish even as it has since 1919. It is likened unto the garden of Eden; for tho hand of the Lord is upon it.
Thus Isaiah's prophecy showed that Jehovah's Theocratic organization Zion would come to a paradise condition as respects beauty and prosperity. That was already true in a measure in the apostle Paul's day. But in 1918, at the climax of World War I, the condition of Zion's spiritual children on earth was desolate because of oppression by her Babylonish enemies. Yet since 1919 a beauty and prosperity greater than what obtained with the Christian church in the first century has been bestowed upon them. ... Jehovah God has done this in our day, and the earthly state of Zion's children is now in a paradise condition spiritually, like the "garden of pleasure".
the first mention i find in the wts publications is 1958. although the wts says the index goes from 1930 to 1985, nothing appears before 1958 a search only found by using the phrase "spiritual paradise" not in the index.
in 2015 there was a clarification of the phrase "of course, we should not conclude that the terms “spiritual paradise” and “spiritual temple” are the same.
the spiritual temple is god’s arrangement for true worship.".
You May Survive Armageddon Into God's New World (1955), page 296:
The spiritual remnant, the original part and those who have been added to them since 1919 and down to 1931, have done great spiritual reconstructive work, converting their once desolate-looking earthly estate into one that resembles the paradise of Eden. ... However, the restored remnant were not to enjoy this spiritual paradise to themselves.
Pages 349-350:
The desolations that Jehovah of armies will have wreaked on the enemy's visible organization may be everywhere visible on the earth, yet the Armageddon survivors will start out with a spiritual paradise in the fullest sense. ... That spiritual paradise will never disappear from the "new earth."
