Halcon:
Hehe.... keep trying jeffro
I don’t need to ‘keep trying’. I have already demonstrated that your understanding of the story is fallaciously impacted by theological bias beyond what the story actually says.
Posts by Jeffro
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299Who told the first lie?
by nicolaou inthis is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?
god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.
in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.
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Jeffro
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299
Who told the first lie?
by nicolaou inthis is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?
god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.
in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.
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Jeffro
Halcon:
God created the angels, including the one now known as the snake.
🤣 So he can add an entire layer of narrative to the story that isn’t present, but he gets annoyed with me because the story didn’t use the word “actually”. 🤦♂️
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299
Who told the first lie?
by nicolaou inthis is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?
god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.
in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.
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Jeffro
Halcon:
God simply said 'you will die'... whereas the snake said 'you will not die '.
And the snake was right. She ate the fruit and didn’t die. The god in the story took separate steps after its lie about the knowledge fruit was made evident.
If I tell you that you will die if you eat a meal today, it doesn’t make that meal causative of the fact that you will die some day. 🤦♂️ (And it makes me no better if I decide to kill you if you eat a meal.)
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299
Who told the first lie?
by nicolaou inthis is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?
god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.
in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.
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Jeffro
TonusOH:
I accept the premise that the serpent deceived Eve.
It didn’t. The wise serpent (the same word translated ‘crafty’ or ‘cunning’ is translated as ‘wise’ or ‘prudent’ in Proverbs) truthfully told Eve that eating the fruit doesn’t actually cause death. After ‘the jig was up’ when it became evident that eating the fruit doesn’t cause death, the god takes separate steps to prevent the humans from living forever.
But where does the serpent come from? God must have created it.
A valid question and conclusion if the story is (erroneously) taken as an original Jewish story, and in the context of later Christian interpretations. But in reality, the snake, the god, and the god’s entourage, are all borrowed tropes from an older story.
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299
Who told the first lie?
by nicolaou inthis is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?
god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.
in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.
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Jeffro
Halcon:
The entire story is maybe 14 , 15 verses.
Seems you must be reading a different story. 🤣
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299
Who told the first lie?
by nicolaou inthis is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?
god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.
in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.
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Jeffro
Halcon:
There is nothing capricious or deceptive by God found in those verses.
Genesis 3:22-24:
22 And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.” 23 So the Lord God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the groundfrom which he had been taken. 24 After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming swordflashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.
Maybe you’re reading a different story. Or just so enamoured with the character based on other stories that you can’t see that the character is a jerk. -
299
Who told the first lie?
by nicolaou inthis is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?
god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.
in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.
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Jeffro
Halcon:
The alternative, the story in isolation, would have been ongoing life for Adam...making love to his wife... making children....in a paradise... without struggle...
No, that isn’t indicated in the story. The story indicates that the god is capricious and deceptive. Who knows what else it would do to the naive unwitting people if they continued ignorant.
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299
Who told the first lie?
by nicolaou inthis is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?
god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.
in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.
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Jeffro
Halcon:
The snake was clearly at fault in my opinion.
But that isn’t because of an honest examination of the story in isolation. It’s been drummed into your head which character is necessarily good no matter what, and the characters have been distorted by characterisations in other stories.
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What has the Spiritual Paradise of the WTS been over time
by blondie inthe first mention i find in the wts publications is 1958. although the wts says the index goes from 1930 to 1985, nothing appears before 1958 a search only found by using the phrase "spiritual paradise" not in the index.
in 2015 there was a clarification of the phrase "of course, we should not conclude that the terms “spiritual paradise” and “spiritual temple” are the same.
the spiritual temple is god’s arrangement for true worship.".
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Jeffro
Paradise is barely mentioned in the Bible (and never in the sense of a global paradise on earth), and ‘spiritual paradise’ isn’t in there at all.
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299
Who told the first lie?
by nicolaou inthis is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?
god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.
in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.
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Jeffro
TonusOH:
I don't see a context in which the snake is good, at least as a counterbalance to god.
Indeed. It’s a particularly naive objection that if one is ‘bad’ in the story, then that must mean the other is ‘the good one’. Neither of them is ‘good’. It’s a co-opted story that has subsequently had its characters conflated with separate characterisations from other stories. Without the baggage of associating the god in the story with other notions about God, no one would consider either of them particularly nice.
I think the focus on "who lied first" is a distraction
To the extent that it’s just a story, that is true. But it is actually a key element when the baggage is stripped away. The story superimposes Yahweh, Adam and Eve into an adaptation of an older Babylonian story (and only later was Satan superimposed on the snake character). The god and the snake in the original story are more nuanced than just ‘good’ and ‘bad’.