FragrantAddendum:
(asking for a friend)
Good. If you think God is your friend, you could probably do with some real ones.
Posts by Jeffro
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299Who told the first lie?
by nicolaou inthis is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?
god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.
in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.
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Jeffro
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299
Who told the first lie?
by nicolaou inthis is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?
god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.
in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.
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Jeffro
Halcon:
Except the snake knew what God had already told Adam and Eve.
That is not indicated in the story, which doesn’t specify that God directly gave the command to Eve at all. The command was given to Adam before rib-girl was made, and the story doesn’t say whether Eve learned of the command directly from God or from Adam. When the snake asks Eve about what trees they can eat from, Eve gives a different answer to the actual original command without referencing the name of the tree at all (despite your false claim that she repeated the exact same words), and the snake doesn’t correct her about the original command, but only corrects the lie. The story indicates that the snake knew the truth about the tree of knowledge and it knew God had said something about what trees they could eat from, but not that it knew the exact command given to Adam.
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299
Who told the first lie?
by nicolaou inthis is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?
god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.
in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.
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Jeffro
joey jojo:
This entire thread is a discussion from a biblical point of view- I thought that was implied?
In that case, the snake couldn’t validly be accused of deception if it didn’t know right from wrong.
A male lion doesnt feel bad about killing his own offspring. Many animals are cannibalisitic. Dogs hump our legs. Is that the normal state of the human condition that god intended?
I don’t remember that being in the Bible story.
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299
Who told the first lie?
by nicolaou inthis is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?
god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.
in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.
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Jeffro
Halcon has said several incorrect things about the story in Genesis chapters 2-3 that call into question his understanding of the story's content as well as its meaning. So wrong in fact that it is often hard to tell if he's even talking about the same story.
Eve understood the same thing, repeating it back to the snake verbatim.
No she didn't. Genesis 2:9 says the tree of life was in the middle of the garden, and that the tree of knowledge of good and bad was also there, and Genesis 2:17 gives the command (before Eve existed) that it was the fruit of the tree of knowledge that should not be eaten. But at Genesis 3:3, Eve only says it is the fruit of the tree 'in the middle of the garden' that cannot be eaten, without any indication that she knew it to be the 'tree of knowledge', and she also adds an additional edict to not even touch it, which is not indicated in the original command.
The snake apparently refused. And very likely lied to Adam and Eve simply out of spite.
There is no indication that the snake refused any command given to it, the snake told the truth about what eating the fruit would do, and there is no indication in the story about the snake's specific motive.
The story ends with Adam dying, according to Genesis.
Adam's death is not specifically depicted in the story, and the specific story ends with their expulsion from the garden, though the characters briefly appear in the separate story of Cain and Abel. It is only in a separate spurious genealogy that the length of Adam's life is specified.
The entire story is maybe 14 , 15 verses.
The story spans chapters 2 and 3 of Genesis, comprising 49 verses.
After God gives man everything first, he gives man one simple rule. ... He gave Adam everything he needed, first.
The rule about the tree was given before Eve was created (from a rib 😒), without whom it 'was not good for the man'.
God did not set up his creation just to simply fail.
In the story, God specifically prevents the humans from living after the lie about the knowledge fruit is revealed.
The snake clearly didn't accept the rules and limitations imposed on him by God.
The story does not indicate any rules or limitations put on the snake prior to the nonsensical 'punishment' in Genesis 3:14.
Indeed, God created the angels, including the one now known as the snake.
There is no basis in the story for concluding that the snake was either an angel itself or controlled by one. Association with 'Satan' was made up centuries later, and is basically fan-fiction.
Genesis doesn't imply anywhere that God introduced a factor to purposely unravel what he saw as good.
Only if you leave out the test involving the two trees and actively conspiring to prevent access to the tree of life.
The snake asked Eve to repeat the very exact words of God
No it didn't. And nor did she repeat the exact words.
'is it true that God said you WILL die?"
The snake never asks that.
Eve responded with 'yes'.
No she didn't.
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299
Who told the first lie?
by nicolaou inthis is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?
god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.
in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.
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Jeffro
joey jojo:
Non-human members of the animal kingdom do not know right from wrong.
That sweeping statement based on an errant comparison with human morality is incorrect. Though other animals lack the same level of complex language and reasoning, various species - particularly social species - demonstrate varying degrees of empathy, fairness, justice, punishment, remorse, cooperation, loyalty, problem solving, etc.
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299
Who told the first lie?
by nicolaou inthis is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?
god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.
in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.
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Jeffro
Halcon:
The snake asked Eve to repeat the very exact words of God
No it didn’t.
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299
Who told the first lie?
by nicolaou inthis is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?
god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.
in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.
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Jeffro
Halcon:
Hehe.... keep trying jeffro
I don’t need to ‘keep trying’. I have already demonstrated that your understanding of the story is fallaciously impacted by theological bias beyond what the story actually says.
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299
Who told the first lie?
by nicolaou inthis is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?
god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.
in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.
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Jeffro
Halcon:
God created the angels, including the one now known as the snake.
🤣 So he can add an entire layer of narrative to the story that isn’t present, but he gets annoyed with me because the story didn’t use the word “actually”. 🤦♂️
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299
Who told the first lie?
by nicolaou inthis is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?
god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.
in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.
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Jeffro
Halcon:
God simply said 'you will die'... whereas the snake said 'you will not die '.
And the snake was right. She ate the fruit and didn’t die. The god in the story took separate steps after its lie about the knowledge fruit was made evident.
If I tell you that you will die if you eat a meal today, it doesn’t make that meal causative of the fact that you will die some day. 🤦♂️ (And it makes me no better if I decide to kill you if you eat a meal.)
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299
Who told the first lie?
by nicolaou inthis is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?
god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.
in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.
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Jeffro
TonusOH:
I accept the premise that the serpent deceived Eve.
It didn’t. The wise serpent (the same word translated ‘crafty’ or ‘cunning’ is translated as ‘wise’ or ‘prudent’ in Proverbs) truthfully told Eve that eating the fruit doesn’t actually cause death. After ‘the jig was up’ when it became evident that eating the fruit doesn’t cause death, the god takes separate steps to prevent the humans from living forever.
But where does the serpent come from? God must have created it.
A valid question and conclusion if the story is (erroneously) taken as an original Jewish story, and in the context of later Christian interpretations. But in reality, the snake, the god, and the god’s entourage, are all borrowed tropes from an older story.