this is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?
god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.
in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.
I know the Jews didn't invent the Flood, but who did? We cannot say. It is fuzzy.
Separate civilisations have developed local flood stories (often presented as ‘global’), some related to this one and others that are entirely independent (despite the tedious JW claim that they all got the story from the Bible one). But we may never know what prior or contemporary alternative versions of the flood story in the Epic existed, originally as oral traditions only.
this is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?
god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.
in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.
Thanks for clarifying. I had taken your comments in the context of a response to peacefulpete’s more specific quoted statement about the Adam and Eve story.
this is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?
god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.
in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.
The narrative likely contains elements from various civilizations, Greek--oops, there I go again, Macedonian, Egyptian, and more than we might be able to unscramble or know about, prior to the Bronze Age Collapse. That is the problem with everything before then and why all this is mythical. It might be based on things various peoples recall through folklore, but there is no way to know because of this widespread fall of society past.
There are obvious and broadly accepted connections between the biblical ‘J’ stories (where ‘J’ is simply shorthand for those stories that we all know I’m referring to) and Mesopotamian stories, particularly the epic of Gilgamesh. It isn’t the case that there is no way to know that, and it isn’t remotely surprising or controversial that Jewish culture was influenced by Babylon. But of course the Jewish adaptations were also influenced by the other cultures as well, particularly the Gr… Macedonians.
this is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?
god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.
in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.
peacefulpete:
I'll add that while I often use labels like J and P, in reality what I mean is distinct sources traditionally described as J, P, D etc
I should note that I refer to J, P, etc only as heuristics to refer to the different styles rather than any strict adherence to that hypothesis or claim that those represent specific single sources.
this is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?
god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.
in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.
MMM:
guess that's my point.
Maybe, though I didn’t mean that the one ‘goat commandment’ was inconsistent with the rest of that list. Rather, the list that includes the ‘goat commandment’ isn’t consistent with the list that is traditionally acknowledged as ‘the Ten Commandments’ (despite the fact that the story says it is the list that was put in the ark of the covenant).
But I’m not really sure that any supposed God that sanctions murder for picking up sticks on ‘the wrong day’ has any real grasp of right and wrong anyway. (And in case KOW is listening in, no this doesn’t mean I’m ‘angry at God’ any more than I’m angry at Voldemort.)
this is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?
god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.
in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.
peacefulpete:
All of the sources and redactors were immersed in Babylonian. Persian and possibly/likely Greek culture.
Of course. But they had varying motivations and political alliances.
Here is a pretty persuasive recreation of the process behind the 'kid in mother's milk' passages.
Thanks. Though my comment was just a cheap jab at that particular ‘commandment’. The point there was really that it is an inconsistent list of commandments that is obviously from a separate redactor.
I'll add that while I often use labels like J and P, in reality what I mean is distinct sources traditionally described as J, P, D etc
Well, yeah, what else would you mean? I don’t think anyone thinks those were the authors’ actual names or anything.
this is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?
god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.
in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.
MMM:
This does seem like a reasonable requirement though...
A baby goat rather than a child. Although…
this is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?
god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.
in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.
J conveys much more Babylonian influence than P and is where much of the philosophising comes from (and also presents God as more anthropomorphic). Adam and Eve. The flood (but also merged with a P version). Tower of Babel. The ridiculous length of the lifespans. The ‘table of nations’. Even the weird alternative Ten Commandments that includes ‘don’t boil a kid in its mother’s milk’ (incidentally the copy of the Ten Commandments that the Bible says Moses kept). (I should probably add that this is not intended as an exhaustive list.)
this is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?
god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.
in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.
I suppose that weird little rant is one way of avoiding an actual review of just who has been 'horrible' in the past.
https://youtu.be/ags07jlopcy?si=g9ra1jqksuuauyax.
Enjoy Life Forever has been updated to remove references to 'disfellowshipping'. Notably, the link to the video about 'Sonja' has been removed. And it's funny that "some people" have supposedly already been saying they're worried they'll be "removed from the congregation" rather than "disfellowshipped". 🙄
| Old (removed text in bold) | New (added text in bold) |
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They may limit our participation in certain Christian activities for a while until we are spiritually healthy. To protect the congregation from harmful influences, the elders disfellowship any who commit serious sins and are unrepentant. |
To protect the congregation from harmful influences, the elders remove from the congregation any who commit serious sins and are unrepentant. |
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4. How disfellowshipping helps If a person who has committed a serious sin refuses to follow Jehovah’s standards, he can no longer be part of the congregation. He is disfellowshipped, and we do not associate with him or even speak with him. Read 1 Corinthians 5:6, 11 and 2 John 9-11, and then discuss this question: ˙ Just as leaven ferments bread dough, how would associating with an unrepentant sinner affect the congregation? Many who have been disfellowshipped have later returned to the congregation because the discipline, although painful, brought them to their senses. (Psalm 141:5) Play the VIDEO, and then discuss the question that follows. VIDEO: Loyally Uphold Jehovah’s Judgments (9:28) ˙ In this dramatization, how did being disfellowshipped help Sonja? How does the disfellowshipping arrangement . . . ˙ honor Jehovah’s name? ˙ show that Jehovah is reasonable and loving? SOME PEOPLE SAY: “I’m afraid that if I tell the elders about my sin, I’ll get disfellowshipped.” ˙ What would you say to someone who feels that way? |
4. Jehovah shows mercy to sinners If a person who has committed a serious sin refuses to follow Jehovah’s standards, he is removed from the congregation, and we do not socialize with him. Read 1 Corinthians 5:6, 11, and then discuss this question: ˙ Just as leaven ferments bread dough, how would socializing with an unrepentant sinner affect the congregation? In imitation of Jehovah’s mercy toward imperfect sinners, elders reach out and help those who have been removed from the congregation. Many have returned to the congregation because the discipline, although painful, brought them to their senses.—Psalm 141:5. How does the way Jehovah deals with sinners show that he is reasonable, merciful, and loving? SOME PEOPLE SAY: “I’m afraid that if I tell the elders about my sin, they will remove me from the congregation.” ˙ What would you say to someone who feels that way? |
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How can the disfellowshipping arrangement benefit everyone involved? “Why Disfellowshipping Is a Loving Provision” (The Watchtower, April 15, 2015) Learn how you can explain the disfellowshipping arrangement to a non-Witness. “Do Jehovah’s Witnesses Shun Those Who Used to Belong to Their Religion?” (Web article) | How do the elders try to help those who commit a serious sin? “Responding to Sin With Love and Mercy” (The Watchtower, August 2024) Consider how love and mercy are shown toward unrepentant sinners. “Help for Those Who Are Removed From the Congregation” (The Watchtower, August 2024) |
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| What if someone we know has decided that he no longer wants to be one of Jehovah’s Witnesses? It can be heartbreaking when someone close to us does this. That person may force us to choose between him and Jehovah. We must be determined to remain loyal to God above all else. (Matthew 10:37) So we obey Jehovah’s command not to associate with such individuals.—Read 1 Corinthians 5:11. | [Deleted] |
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To remain loyal to Jehovah, we need to avoid associating with those who are disloyal to him. We also need to separate ourselves completely from false religion. Review ˙ Why should we not watch, read, or listen to the ideas of apostates? ˙ How should we treat those who no longer want to be Jehovah’s Witnesses? ˙ How can we heed the warning to flee from false religion? | To remain loyal to Jehovah, we need to avoid associating with those who try to mislead us. Review ˙ Why should we not listen to the ideas of apostates? ˙ If we learn that a brother has sinned seriously, what should we do? ˙ How can we heed the warning to flee from false religion? |
