Posts by Jeffro

60

The Question of the "Great Apostasy" and the Historical Continuity of Christianity

by aqwsed12345 in

1. the continuity and visibility of the church.

the true church must be continuous from the apostolic age.

there is no room in christianity for a "gap" or interruption of thousands of years during which true christianity ceased to exist and then was revived in the form of another movement.

Jeffro

However, this position contradicts the teachings of the Catholic Church, which holds that the sanctity of the Church does not depend on the moral state of its members.

No conflict of interest there. 🤣

However, these sins do not justify the broad generalization that every priest or the entire Church is guilty.

Oh goody, a straw man.🤦‍♂️

Can’t be bothered going through everything in that (yet another) rambling post. I guess ‘all Catholics’ must have a problem with being concise. 😒

60

The Question of the "Great Apostasy" and the Historical Continuity of Christianity

by aqwsed12345 in

1. the continuity and visibility of the church.

the true church must be continuous from the apostolic age.

there is no room in christianity for a "gap" or interruption of thousands of years during which true christianity ceased to exist and then was revived in the form of another movement.

Jeffro

peacefulpete:

Again, the parallels of the events surrounding Bar Kokhba and Judas Maccabeus, are pretty hard to miss.

It is an interesting idea, and it is ‘possible’ (highly likely) that edits were made to the documents after their original form. But it’s also very easy to see ‘obvious parallels’ after later events have occurred (and it’s what JWs and other groups do for their own ‘obvious’ interpretations about ‘our day’). Of course, unlike the JW nonsense, it’s not entirely implausible that references to events up to the 130s may have been edited in, but that much later is not consistent with the narrative that everything was expected to occur ‘within a generation’.

60

The Question of the "Great Apostasy" and the Historical Continuity of Christianity

by aqwsed12345 in

1. the continuity and visibility of the church.

the true church must be continuous from the apostolic age.

there is no room in christianity for a "gap" or interruption of thousands of years during which true christianity ceased to exist and then was revived in the form of another movement.

Jeffro

The essence of the red herring fallacy

Ironically, the entire longwinded passage was a red herring. Quite independent of the fact that there are legitimate criticisms of Catholicism in particular, like all brands of Christianity, Catholicism relies on superstition, unreliable traditions and unverifiable claims.

60

The Question of the "Great Apostasy" and the Historical Continuity of Christianity

by aqwsed12345 in

1. the continuity and visibility of the church.

the true church must be continuous from the apostolic age.

there is no room in christianity for a "gap" or interruption of thousands of years during which true christianity ceased to exist and then was revived in the form of another movement.

Jeffro

peacefulpete:

My research has led me to the opinion that Mark in it's final form could be that late. The min-apocalypse shows signs of being reworked/updated to include events of the 3rd war. Matt followed soon, Luke a decade or so later.

I’m not saying it’s impossible, but it is unnecessary and not entirely likely. Picking an event that seems similar about ‘false prophets’ and concluding that it ‘must’ be part of the ‘fulfilment’ (irrespective of whether it is asserted as ‘prophecy’) is falling into the same trap as people who say there are ‘false prophets’ fulfilling it now. In the same manner, if Mark were written when most scholars say it was, people in the 130s could have run around saying , “See, Mark has prophecy about what’s happening now,” but really it’s just more events that are ‘similar enough’ to some vague statements. Then through the years, there are more and more events that ‘fit’ (due to ambiguity), and you get to where we are now.

42

"We're in the last days!"

by BoogerMan in

not just jw's, but countless others (evangelicals etc.

) are claiming that we're in the "last days.".

but........bible students/jw's have been spouting this fake message since the 19th century!!!!!!.

Jeffro

Duran:

unknown amount days for WW3, but last days begin at start of the 1,335 days

So we have to get through WW3 first before we can even start to see if your superstitious interpretation is correct. 🤦‍♂️ What a load of nonsense. The ‘last days’ is a trope that has nothing to do with any modern wars or political situations.

23

Where Adam and Eve Vegan/Vegetarian?

by KerryKing in

jws seem to firmly believe that before the flood mankind eas vegan or at least vegetarian.. however, in gen 1:24,25 it says that god created livestock (domestic animals) and beasts of the eart (wild beasts).. why would adam and eve need livestock if they were vegan and naked?

wouldn't need wool or hide for clothing, nor meat for food.

possibly for dairy products only?

Jeffro

peacefulpete:

As a recent poster, and fluent Jew, has argued, our literalist/Fundamentalist training is very difficult to see around. Tales and stories need not be read as documentaries (and generally shouldn't) to have profound importance for teachers and students. Suspending our critical mind to enter the stories to try to feel what the author intended is not the same thing as dismissing the stories as worthless 'lies'. Nor is it the same as mistaking stories as history and dismissing scientific and historical reality.

It is true that such stories have been told in particular cultures to impart lessons rather than being intended as literal histories, and it can be helpful to have an understanding of that intent (while keeping in mind that those interpretations also aren’t the original interpretations or versions of the stories borrowed from even earlier cultures). But other cultures have reinterpreted those stories as literal, and there is nothing wrong with analysing or criticising those (re)interpretations, whether that be academically or just for amusement. This is especially the case when the proponents of those reinterpretations have a more significant impact on present society.

For example, if someone in the United States wants to use Genesis to teach creationism in schools, there is limited value in focusing on a Jewish interpretation of the story and concluding that there’s no issue.

60

The Question of the "Great Apostasy" and the Historical Continuity of Christianity

by aqwsed12345 in

1. the continuity and visibility of the church.

the true church must be continuous from the apostolic age.

there is no room in christianity for a "gap" or interruption of thousands of years during which true christianity ceased to exist and then was revived in the form of another movement.

Jeffro

Deutero-Paulines like 2 Thess were also 2nd century works addressing then current issues such as doubts due to long delay, a reinterpretation toward a realized eschatology, and continuing rejection of efforts to establish an orthodoxy.

This is an accurate assessment though.

60

The Question of the "Great Apostasy" and the Historical Continuity of Christianity

by aqwsed12345 in

1. the continuity and visibility of the church.

the true church must be continuous from the apostolic age.

there is no room in christianity for a "gap" or interruption of thousands of years during which true christianity ceased to exist and then was revived in the form of another movement.

Jeffro

peacefulpete:

There is good reason to include the events of 135-136CE in the context of Mark 13 and related texts.

This reinterpretation might seem convenient but is not consistent with the order of events relative to the ‘great tribulation’. Mark wasn’t written that late and there’s no reason to assume a superstitious ‘fulfilment’.

18

The boy who has cried wolf - for nearly 140 years!

by BoogerMan in

"when will this hope be fulfilled?

the bible foretold events that would signal that god’s kingdom is about to begin its rule over the earth.

present world conditions match what the bible foretold.

Jeffro

but let’s not pretend they are a new player in this game

🤦‍♂️ That obviously isn’t what I meant. Was in a hurry. JWs are a ‘new player’, but it’s the game that isn’t new.

18

The boy who has cried wolf - for nearly 140 years!

by BoogerMan in

"when will this hope be fulfilled?

the bible foretold events that would signal that god’s kingdom is about to begin its rule over the earth.

present world conditions match what the bible foretold.

Jeffro

Christians have been claiming that Jesus would return ‘soon’ for nearly 2000 years. JWs’ brand of nonsense is particularly laughable, but let’s not pretend they are a new player in this game.